[CS1] Hazama Gameplay Discusson

[Arifureta]

It is pretty difficult to actually get the launcher into the C mash bit of his BnB. Plus his chains! Man, it takes a while to get down where and when they'll hit, and which are safe and whatnot.

[Eclipse]

I'm not sure how difficult his BnB's are, but the timing for 6D after Jayoku definitely takes a high level of skill. Especially when every character has a different timing, or roughly different. My main concern isn't how difficult he is to main, though I do like a challenging character.

I just find mirror matches boring, and repetitive. So I'm hoping as many people won't use him. Maybe Mu-12 will be the new rage when the game finally comes out.

[Arifureta]

I'm actually really looking forward to how Mu's going to play. *_*

But yeah, mirror matches are never fun; Hazama one's even worse. Everyone's just going to try to hit confirm with chains. ._.

[Wolf Pup TK]

I'm very confused about something that I see a lot of better players do but just cannnot seem to do myself. For any combos that require canceling a chain after hit into another chain (Jayoku, 6Dx3, etc), I pretty much can NEVER hit the second chain. I know I'm not hitting from too close and getting the wimpy hitstun, but it either misses them, or they tech out just before the chain hits, or they're to far away to connect with the second one. At the moment I just do one D now, since it's all that'll hit.... stuff like 214D->B(CH), 6D, 263D.

I'd really like to get those extra Ds in there. Does anyone have any advice?

[Eclipse]

I'm very confused about something that I see a lot of better players do but just cannnot seem to do myself. For any combos that require canceling a chain after hit into another chain (Jayoku, 6Dx3, etc), I pretty much can NEVER hit the second chain. I know I'm not hitting from too close and getting the wimpy hitstun, but it either misses them, or they tech out just before the chain hits, or they're to far away to connect with the second one. At the moment I just do one D now, since it's all that'll hit.... stuff like 214D->B(CH), 6D, 263D.

I'd really like to get those extra Ds in there. Does anyone have any advice?

Well, to be 100% honest with you, I believe that's one of the hardest aspects to mastering Hazama in CS. There's a certain distance and timing you need to connect 2 or more 6D's on the falldown from Jayoku, or the (FC) from 214D->B.

If they tech out early, you're probably not doing 6d->A fast enough, but with a little practice, you can hit confirm and retract it immediately. The hardest part is definitely getting the timing and distance down. Sometimes you'll need to back up a little bit to allow multiple 6D's to hit. Also, remember, nearly all characters have different hitboxes and you need to use the chain at different times accordingly. I haven't completely mastered this myself, but I've pulled it off at least several times. I'd recommend asking someone more knowledgeable on the subject for the time being.

[Arifureta]

For 214D~B (CH), getting the 2nd 6D in depends on the character. I think Noel, Litchi and Jin (maybe Hazama too. Dude's got a weird hitbox; I just realized it the other day) are characters that you can only do 1 6D on.

214D~~B(FC) gets you 3.

For 214D~~C > 5C > 2C, it's possible to get 2 4Ds on them before you pull yourself up for the c Mash. It's just like the standard BnB though. If there's 2 hits before the 3C, the 2nd 4D isn't going to hit.

Jayoku (FC) can get you 3 6Ds (4 on some) before Jyakou. Only viable if Jayoku did FC since anything less than 3 6Ds isn't really worth it (although if you slam them into the corner and you're close enough for the follow-up then by all means), otherwise just go into the 214D~~C follow-up since you still get > 4k damage plus ~30 heat gain. Plus, you can do 2 4Ds on the launcher

B+C gets you 2 6Ds (though, again, not on Noel, Litchi and Jin).

Generally though, all the extra chain hits involve correct spacing. If you're too close the chain doesn't clamp and you've wasted a knockdown; if you're too far they tech out. There's also the matter of taking into account how low your opponent is before you hit them with the first 6D. If you do it too fast then they're still too high up into the air and your next 6D is going to wiff.

tl;dr Let them fall for a little bit before you do 6D. Also, dashing in helps with some characters.

[kazukifafner]

For CH 214D~B, you can ALWAYS get at least 2 6Ds in (no matter what character). The key is, wait for it . . . patience. After you launch them, you want to wait for them to fall down so that you when you hit them with the first 6D, it hits the top section of the character. That way, when you release it with A, they'll be much easier to tag with the next 6D. It's the same with FC 214D~~B, except that you can add another chain to it. Of course, you also have to be close enough (but that should be obvious, lol).

Though, you can get 3 6Ds off of only CH 214D~B with the right timing on certain characters. This is fairly obvious for Tager, but I've even achieved 3 off of Bang if I hit him right at the edge of his hitbox.

However, if they are too high in the air when you hit the first 6D, then they will either tech out or the 2nd one will whiff (or if they are too far away, but again, that should be obvious).

[FlyingVe]

An execution note on the 6DxN. I have found that hitting with multiple 6D's is much easier if you A cancel them the instant the chain connects. It seems obvious, but even the slightest delay in retracting your chain can give them time to tech out.

[Eclipse]

Okay, just to get this straight, could anyone list the number of maximum or "recommended" 6D's you should use on a character after each specific move. Example: (Since I'm not sure myself.)

Jayoku -> ?

Jayoku (FC) -> ?

214D->B (CH) -> ?

214D->B (FC) -> ?

B+C -> ?

Those are all of the ones I can think of right now, the normal BnB's are pretty easy to remember anyways. Just throw in an extra 4D if there weren't 2 hits or more before 3C.

I just think the maximum amount (that would work on all characters), or recommendations would be fine. Either way, organizing all of the information will hopefully make it easier for some people to pick up Hazama.

[kazukifafner]

As FlyingVe mentioned, a key to using Hazama's chains is knowing their speed (which requires a bit of experience with them). What I mean by that, is you have to know how long the chain will take to reach a certain point of the screen, and be able to retract it then. This is key for connecting multiple chains. More experienced Hazama players know when to hit A without for the 4D or 6D to connect, because they know that by the time they press A, the move will have connected and the chain will retract. This is largely experience and muscle memory, but it's key all the same.

@Eclipse

*Safe(Reasonable when experienced with the timing/characters/etc.)

Jayoku -> 2(3)

Jayoku FC -> 3(4)

214D~B CH -> 1(2)

214D~~B FC -> 2(3)

B+C -> 1(2)

Admittedly, I'm not as sure about Jayoku without FC properties, because I usually just go for 214D~~C followup in that scenario. Also, with these numbers, I was trying to assume minimal skill followed by adequate skill; though for Jayoku, it may be closer to adequate followed by experienced, since the timing for Jayoku chain followup (at least for me) is more difficult than Gashoukyaku chain followup.

[Eclipse]

As FlyingVe mentioned, a key to using Hazama's chains is knowing their speed (which requires a bit of experience with them). What I mean by that, is you have to know how long the chain will take to reach a certain point of the screen, and be able to retract it then. This is key for connecting multiple chains. More experienced Hazama players know when to hit A without for the 4D or 6D to connect, because they know that by the time they press A, the move will have connected and the chain will retract. This is largely experience and muscle memory, but it's key all the same.

@Eclipse

*Safe(Reasonable when experienced with the timing/characters/etc.)

Jayoku -> 2(3)

Jayoku FC -> 3(4)

214D~B CH -> 1(2)

214D~~B FC -> 2(3)

B+C -> 1(2)

Admittedly, I'm not as sure about Jayoku without FC properties, because I usually just go for 214D~~C followup in that scenario. Also, with these numbers, I was trying to assume minimal skill followed by adequate skill; though for Jayoku, it may be closer to adequate followed by experienced, since the timing for Jayoku chain followup (at least for me) is more difficult than Gashoukyaku chain followup.

Thanks for the list, it just makes things a bit easier to remember. Also, I'd agree that the Jayoku Houtenjin followup is much more difficult than the Gashoukyaku one. And I almost always go for 214D->C too without a FC Jayoku, since it usually nets more damage and heat gain, etc. The only reason you'd really want to use 6D without a FC is if you're in the corner.

I do understand what you all mean regarding retracting the chain quickly and ahead of time, I've pretty much got that part down. The hardest thing for me, is understanding the speed at which it goes out since I'm usually too late or early. It's a lot slower than Jakou, so sometimes I'll just go for Jakou, and the 2B 5C 2C followup when I'm in the corner. I guess I just need to keep practicing.

[eirei]

The only reason you'd really want to use 6D without a FC is if you're in the corner.

Not even then, you can dash under and crossup easily provided you positioned yourself properly. Like you said, 6D is best saved for a FC Jayoku.

[FlyingVe]

THis is another obvious execution note but, you can special cancel the chain. So on the last hit just do 6D>623D as opposed to 6D~A>623D.

[Eclipse]

THis is another obvious execution note but, you can special cancel the chain. So on the last hit just do 6D>623D as opposed to 6D~A>623D.

Agreed, obvious, but it seems to be left out on many sites with combos, and it bothers me a little. I even see people doing 6D->A to 623D. It's so much safer and easier to just cancel the last 6D into it.

[FlyingVe]

That's not quite true. Hitting with 6D~A pops the enemy up into the air a little bit, and sometimes they will be too low for 623D if you just do 6D>623D. Basically, if you opponent is in range, do the easy option.

[kazukifafner]

You also have to remember that height is the most important factor when it comes to whether or not you can link to 3C > Jayoku. Sometimes that extra height is all it takes to change that. Honestly, it's just better to get into the habit of going from 6D~A > Jakou. From my experience, if they couldn't tech out from the 6D, they won't be able to tech out before the Jakou hits either. Jakou, after all, is faster than his normal chains.

[Eclipse]

You also have to remember that height is the most important factor when it comes to whether or not you can link to 3C > Jayoku. Sometimes that extra height is all it takes to change that. Honestly, it's just better to get into the habit of going from 6D~A > Jakou. From my experience, if they couldn't tech out from the 6D, they won't be able to tech out before the Jakou hits either. Jakou, after all, is faster than his normal chains.

True, I guess you're right about the height difference. I didn't know that 6D->A actually hits them up a bit more. I guess it's the same way of getting in the habit of dash -> 5C after Zaneiga. I really find it difficult for me to get into that habit though.

[lunaris]

The only reason you'd really want to use 6D without a FC is if you're in the corner.

i'd imagine you know already, but since this could mislead a newer player, i'll mention that 6d is always hazama's highest damage option with 100 meter(if someone knows better, correct me). the jyayoku>6d[~aXn]>623d>3c>jyayoku>214d~c pattern does more damage than other combos, and you use it with or without FC.

Not even then, you can dash under and crossup easily provided you positioned yourself properly. Like you said, 6D is best saved for a FC Jayoku.

i believe he meant when hazama is in the corner and the enemy is not, in which case his statement wasn't incorrect. i'd have to test to make sure, but i believe combos involving 6d first do more damage when hazama is in the corner than 214d~c combos(they definitely do with 100 meter), and they also put the enemy in the corner(if that's where you want them).

True, I guess you're right about the height difference. I didn't know that 6D->A actually hits them up a bit more. I guess it's the same way of getting in the habit of dash -> 5C after Zaneiga. I really find it difficult for me to get into that habit though.

you weren't replying to me, but yes, it is pretty important. it's an important skill as well to be able to tell when 6d~a will knock them out of jyakou range and when it won't(due to either angle or height), because it happens pretty often at greater heights, and also vs certain characters(like lamda) after 214d~c corner crossup combos.

[Eclipse]

Thanks for clearing that up Lunaris, I was referring to when Hazama was in the corner, not his opponent, so I was a little confused about the "dash under and crossup" comment. Just a misunderstanding I guess.

I agree with you about using it with 100 meter with or without FC. It's certainly the highest damage option when your meter is full.

Yeah, I'm still having a lot of trouble mastering the 6D->A x N, and following up with 623D. I try moving back a bit, but you can't be too far back, or it won't hit them if they're low. And whenever I hit them with Jayoku Houtenjin, they go flying forwards. As a result, Hazama's "icon" starts moving backwards... This makes it more difficult to adjust myself to the correct distance. If that makes any sense to you guys, haha.

I've noticed that sometimes the opponent flies forwards and up, while at others they just go up. Or less forwards, I wonder what causes that. Regardless, I'll keep training and eventually figure it out.

[kazukifafner]

So, what are some of your favorite/best Houtenjin (or 50% heat) combos? I'm trying to compile a list of some of the better combos for a HZ guide I'm doing for tianyuan's site.

[Arifureta]

If I'm in the corner:

Jayoku > [6D~A]x3(4) > 623D > 2B > 5C > 2C > 4D~A > 4D~D > [j.C]x10 > 214B [~5k?]

Otherwise:

Jayoku > 214D~~C > 5C > 2C > 4D~A > 4D~D > [j.C]x10 > 214B [~4k]

Another 50 heat combo I like:

214D~B (CH) > (66) > [6D~A]x2 > 623D > Mizuchi [~3k. ~4k if you do [6D~A]x3]

[Eclipse]

Here are a few of them that I like from mid screen:

(Jayoku Houtenjin)

236236B(FC), 214D->C, 2C (jc) [J.C x 5], land, 2C xx 4D->D xx J.214B# [~4500]

(Mizuchi Rekkazan)

5B 3C xx 214D->C, 5C 2C xx 4D->A xx 4D xx 623D xx 632146C [~4100]

(Rapid Cancel for decent damage)

214D->B (FC), [6D->A] x 3 xx 623D (Rapid Cancel), short dash xx 214D->C, 5C 2C xx 4D->A xx 4D->D xx J.214B# [~4400]

[Chronoxir]

Hello. I have questions.

5C launch which characters after one 623D in the wall ? I in account five. Taokaka, Tager, Hakumen, Rachel and Arakune.

623D jump cancel j6D->D work only on Tager ? I have difficulty making this combo: B+C 6D->A 6D->A 623D Jump Cancel (with 7) j6D->D...... on Tager, I make nevertheless j6D->D as soon as possible.

Hirentotsu Loop works on what characters ? Rachel only ? Or all the characters launch by one 5C on the ground ?

Thx !!

[Eclipse]

Hello. I have questions.

5C launch which characters after one 623D in the wall ? I in account five. Taokaka, Tager, Hakumen, Rachel and Arakune.

623D jump cancel j6D->D work only on Tager ? I have difficulty making this combo: B+C 6D->A 6D->A 623D Jump Cancel (with 7) j6D->D...... on Tager, I make nevertheless j6D->D as soon as possible.

Hirentotsu Loop works on what characters ? Rachel only ? Or all the characters launch by one 5C on the ground ?

Thx !!

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the first paragraph, but Hirentotsu loops usually aren't worth it due to the low proration it has.

Now, I could be wrong on this, but I don't think you can jump cancel 623D, or the timing can be very strict on it. Also, jumping up to do 6D->D doesn't work on most characters, since they'll be able to tech before you can follow up.

[Wolf Pup TK]

As far as I know, you can follow up 623D with a j6D->D on any character, but the timing is very strict, and you need to hit with the very tip of Jakou or you won't have enough time. I'm just repeating what I was told. I've never done this successfully on anyone.

EDIT: Oops, I keep mixing the names Jayoku and Jakou. ^^;