Picup Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 2AAAAAAAAAAAA No, seriously, it's legit for Tsubaki >_> >_>; why did I lol... Anyways, I meant to ask this question earlier but didn't get the time, but for the first combo (assuming that there is only one...) in Challenge 6, after the jCC (or jC, I can't remember right off the top of my head), when you go into 236D214D, are you suppose to wait a fraction of a second before launching into the 214D or should your input be already in? I just have troubles with the timing at this part.
Daedron Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 You have to wait a bit before inputting the j.214D. I would say about half a second.
Airk Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 I'd like to ask also what blockstrings do u guys use? i pretty much only do the 5BB + 2BB + 5CC + "any other move" This isn't really safe at current, by my understanding, but depending on the calibur of your opponent you might be able to get away with it. The best "any other move" to cancel into is probably 22C, though you can still be countered in between or afterward by an opponent who is good at instant blocking. Fortunately, it's a delayable move, so you can screw with them a little bit there. The other advantage of 22C is that it looks like 22D and if you can condition your opponent to block the 22C they're more likely to sit there while you charge an unblockable 22D. But yes, right now as far as "safe" blockstrings, you have: 5AAA 2AAA 5B (Okay, technically not a string, but safe. :P )
TD Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 5bb 2bb etc should never be used outside of combos. Even 5bb 2b cc is pushing it.
Airk Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 5bb 2bb etc should never be used outside of combos. Even 5bb 2b cc is pushing it. I know this is a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway: Why is this string unsafe? I can theorize that the gatling from 5bb to 2b leaves you at -frames (Though that's strictly theory because the frame data doesn't really have any indication of when 5BB can be canceled), but 2b is only -1 on block all by itself. So I'm not actually even sure what charge canceling it accomplishes, since 2D adds at least 6 vulnerable frames (1 frame of actual charging and 5 of recovery.). So unless you're able to charge cancel VERY early in the recovery, in which case, wouldn't that actually make you + on block? Which would be... I mean, ow my brain. So basically, I'm taking it on the word of the better players here that this string IS unsafe, but I don't really understand why. Can someone fill me in here?
Rhiya Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 5bb 2bb etc should never be used outside of combos. Even 5bb 2b cc is pushing it. I'd say it's more in what your opponent will let you get away with. There's no reason to assume your opponent will mash you out until they actually /do/, so...
TD Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 5bb is minus 13. Factoring in its level its stll very unssfe. I suppose one could do 5b 2b and stop there, but then there*s range issues...
TD Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 And dusk, assuming the opponent know what game theyre playing, they WILL mash out. Let me tell you why. No one cares about losing 1k if they fuck up. Hell, even i mash out of her shit and im very successful at it!
pktazn Posted January 5, 2011 Posted January 5, 2011 Yea it's pretty easy to mash out of that block string and it's just easy to get out of it if they IB something... happened a couple of times two nights ago when I was playing against Jourdal >__>
TD Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 ^yes, this is correct. And its why tsubaki is terrible. However as mentioned before, 2aaaaaa is possibly her best string. From it you can go into 2b, 6a, throw, and a few other things. A lone max range 5b is also good as mentioned because it is a pretty strong anti air (anti twitch in cs2!) and can go into a 3c shenanigans which is pretty safe. It also gets you advantage as well as a bit of assurance in terms of baiting those damn 720s and serpent kicks.
Airk Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 5bb is minus 13. This probably doesn't have anything to do with it at all, since you cancel the recovery when you gatling into the next move. The problem might have something to do with the number of startup frames on 2B (13) but even so, 5BB is a level 3 attack, which means it should give 16 frames of blockstun, which means the opponent should be in blockstun until 1 frame after 2B hits. Assuming a 'perfect' gatling that cancels all the recovery. I don't know if it actually works this way - does anyone know if gatlings cancel ALL the recovery for a move, or just a specific amount depending on the move? Under those sorts of circumstances, there's no way people would be able to "mash out" with anything but an invincible startup move - and actually not even that, since I don't think you can cancel blockstun with a special? And none of this even approaches explaining which charge cancelling 2B does any good?
Rhiya Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Why is 3c safe, btw? It's got just as much disadvantage as 5bb
Airk Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Why is 3c safe, btw? It's got just as much disadvantage as 5bb I presume it's because it can be jump cancelled on block? If I'm understanding the notation correctly in the frame data, 5BB can only be jump cancelled on hit? (It doesn't actually say what the parenthesis mean, so I'm guessing.)
pktazn Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Because people don't know her 3C or that she even has one lol. Just kidding. I believe it's untechable if it hits you on the ground though and like Airk said jump cancelable on block. and Airk to me, it's not so much about frames as it is about them just being able to easily block the whole thing especially if they know it's coming and if they're smart and IB it you're done (curse you Jourdaaaal). They don't even have to mash, just patiently block and after 5CC since iirc it can only go into a special or 2C :< It just leaves you with less options to choose from and escape from should something go terribly wrong. Frame data is helpful but don't forget the human element.
TD Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Im not too great with tsu's frame data, however im basing my answers from experience. I know that dps go through 5bb, ibd or not. Ill have to test this again though... And i believe 3c is only -3 on block? So it could only be punished on ib, and even still the opponent would only have 5a. Also airk i believe in the frame data the levels are already factored into the attack. Someone would have to confirm this though.
Kiba Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 I know that dps go through 5bb, ibd or not. Ill have to test this again though.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7VgPpYylOc&t=9m16s
TD Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Welp, there ya go. Tsu sucks. You do either 2aaaaaaa, or 5b once. Anything else is asking for a jayakou up your ass. (oy, can you imagine that? Ouchies!)
Airk Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Im not too great with tsu's frame data, however im basing my answers from experience. I know that dps go through 5bb, ibd or not. Ill have to test this again though... And i believe 3c is only -3 on block? So it could only be punished on ib, and even still the opponent would only have 5a. Also airk i believe in the frame data the levels are already factored into the attack. Someone would have to confirm this though. The level is factored in when calculating the frame advantage, yes, but that's the frame advantage if you DON'T CANCEL - i.e. if you just hit the move and let it finish. Any sort of cancel, be it "revolver action", jump cancel, or whatever reduces or removes the recovery frames, therefore completely changing the results. What I'm not clear on is the question I asked earlier - namely, whether gatlings/RA cancels cancel ALL the recovery of a move or only some specific part. That video, though, finally makes everything make sense. Why? Because the 5BB never even HITS. Before, I was concentrating on 5BB string not being safe because of something about 5BB's recovery, but in the video, Lambda goes from blocking a 5B - which is +1 on block even WITHOUT being cancelled - right into a Gravity Field, which then causes the subsequent 5BB to whiff because it goes through her during the invulnerable frames. (If you look really closely at 9:18, you can see the gravity field effects on the floor around her while the 5BB is passing right through.). Running the math: Frame 1: Lambda Blocks 5B, Gets 16 frames of Block Stun (Level 3 attack) Frame 2,3: The other two active frames of 5B. Lambda has 14 frames of block stun left. Frame 4: First Frame of recovery of 5B. 5B cancels, 5BB begins on the next frame. Lambda has 13 frames of block stun left. Frame 5-18: 13 frames of startup on 5BB. By the end of this, Lambda has no frames of blockstun left. Frame 19: First active frame of 5BB...but also the first frame of Gravity Field, which is invulnerable from 1-21. 5BB's hitbox may or may not have extended far enough at this point to make contact, but it's irrelevant because at this point Lambda is invulnerable. Frame 20: Whiff! Etc. So basically, this is a "perfect storm" situation for Lambda, but it also applies to any other move with frame 1 invulnerability. What it ALSO tells me, in the course of "Talking this through" like this is that Gatlings probably do cancel all but 1 frame of recovery, and that the critical decier for whether a blockstring is safe or not is: A) The level of the 1st attack B) The number of active frames of the 1st attack (more is worse) B) The STARTUP of the next attack. Recovery frames basically don't enter into it, because they are cancelled as long as you have something else to gatling to. Further investigation of frame data shows me that other characters who have attacks with similar attributes - such as Bang's 5B and 2B, have special doctored settings to make their blockstrings safe - Bang's 5B and 2B give EXTRA BLOCK STUN beyond what is normal for level 3 attacks. The other way it works is with characters like Ragna, is that his attacks come out faster - 5C and 2C are only 12 frames of startup, which is precisely the number you need to be able to safely gatling from a level 3 attack like, say, 5B. I finally get it. And now I am really crabby, because half of Tsubaki's balance issues could've been fixed if someone at Arc had spend 10 F-ing minutes doing the math like I just did. Goddamnit. Oh well, as long as this is fixed in the patch. Idiots.
TD Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Well we all pretty much established that tsu sucks. You need not stress your brain trying to figure her dumb shit out, its only going to depress the shit out of everybody. Hell i play her for fun but honestly im depressee about it! Thats why i want to commend all that stuck with her.... Not run away like i did with rach...
Akira-Shiro Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Tsubaki isnt that bad, after all her combos if u do decide to charge. It puts the match at a neutral position, He 5B may not be great for pressure strings but it sure does beat out 95% of everyone elses normals at a neutral position. The other 5% being Ragnas 5B An if u do get the 1st hit its most likely gonna be a CH 5B, with that u could do 5B>6CC>Sj.b>Jc>J.b>J.cc>236A>214c 3.2K. & since u were just charging u should have 1 light segment & do 5b>6cc>sj.C>J.236D(first hit only)>J.214B(miss)>5B>2CC>Sj.C>Jcc>236a>214C 3.7k Edited January 6, 2011 by Akira-Shiro
pktazn Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Well we all pretty much established that tsu sucks. At least she looks better in CS2 :3
TD Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 she does look playable in cs2... but im going to be honest, she dosent look fun to me anymore. come cs2 i'll try her but i'm likely dropping her for a more fun troll. thinking between tao, carl, or ragna!
Recommended Posts