GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[GaijinMo]

I would imagine that characters in the same tier are supposed to be roughly equal as per my understanding of the term tier. I don't have the mag so I don't know if there was a matchup chart or a ranking with individual character scores that led to that list. The person from whom I got it from may have been incorrect (hell the entire thing could be made up), that's why I hoped someone else could confirm that it was actually in the mag.

[Sytha]

SEddie, Slayer, Testament, Potemkin

AMay, Baiken, Jam, ABA, Axl

BMillia, Ky, Venom, Sol, Zappa, Robo, OS

CFaust, Dizzy, Chipp, Anji

DJohnny, I-no, Bridget

I don't really care about the order of the top 4 at all. Other than Potemkin is 4th. I think May is a step above the others in A tier personally. But I don't really consider her good enough to match up with the Boys in S.

[axel]

Why is Potemkin rated above Jam? I thought Potemkin is bad against too many characters to be rated that high?

[Digital Watches]

Nah, that's old news. Pot is pretty solid strong these days. Vince, May over Jam? Really? I could see Baiken, but Jam?

[Sytha]

May's good dude. It's pretty much the same deal as Jam were there are moves you don't want to get hit by or you'll be in a lot of pain, she's got that huge airthrow, insane command grab+good tick throw game revolving around it. (which does like 40%-60% pretty much anywhere on the screen.), dumb frame traps all over the place, Etc... My Experience is Jam is not that much tho. Jam, Venom and Faust are definitely characters I rarely if ever have to deal with.

[shinquickman]

(+)= higher than the recent tiers, (-)= lower S: Eddie, (+)Slayer, Testament A: Baiken, Potemkin, Jam B: (-)May, (-)Axl, Venom, Faust, ABA, Zappa, Robo, Millia, (+)Ky, HOS C: Sol, Chipp, Johnny, Anji, Dizzy Borderline: Bridget, I-no (+): Slayer needs no explanation... really. Ky is always at least in a decent position (air, ground, close, far) and not totally dominated under pressure like other zoners thanks to slide and DP. (-): Axl's gimmicky. He either lands a poke and gets a chunk a damage or misses a poke and gets wrecked for it (or the opponent blocks in which case neither side gets anywhere). There's more to his game but this scenario is the most prevalent (unless you have slow jumps like po and robo). May is rarely at a dominant position. Bad pokes, no dp but is backed up by the highest average damage (among other little perks).

[Digital Watches]

I really can't see Baiken over Pot, man.

(-): Axl's gimmicky. He either lands a poke and gets a chunk a damage or misses a poke and gets wrecked for it (or the opponent blocks in which case neither side gets anywhere). There's more to his game but this scenario is the most prevalent (unless you have slow jumps like po and robo).

I disagree with this assessment (Though it seems to be a very popular misconception.) Losing exchanges is one thing, but people seem to have this idea that even competent Axl players will throw things out randomly hoping to score a hit by chance. On the contrary, I contend that doing so marks an Axl player as incompetent.

[Klaige]

I'm bored and having a rotten weekend, I'll throw my thoughts in. I look at the AC tiers in 2 sections. The areas that I think are easy to tier (the top and the bottom) and the area that gets really muddy in AC (the A-B section). For me The top is unquestionably Eddie, Test, Slayer, Potemp Call it S if you like. (Eddie is top, Po is 4th, Slayer and Test could potentially switch given their growth potential). The bottom is unquestionably Johnny, Anji, I-no, and Bridget. Probably in that order. Bridget is the bottom for me, you could argue the position of the other 3. Now for the muddy parts. For me there is the group right behind the top 4. This would consist of Baiken, May, and Jam. We'll call this the top of A. Then the group right above the bottom, this is where would set: Robo, Chipp, and Ky. in no order. We'll call this the bottom of B. This last part is the area where you could switch and move people with impunity. We have left. Millia, Aba, Zappa, HOSS, Sol, Faust, Axl, and venom. For me, Aba, Millia, and Axl are all A, Axl being at the very end. Venom, Zappa, Hoss, Sol, Faust are all in portions of B, but ordering them is near impossible if you ask me. So by process of elimination, Here's my list. S and C are in order to the T. A is mostly in order. B is seperated in half, but neither is really in order, the middle is very up for grabs. S: Eddie, Test, Slayer, Po A: Jam, Baiken, May, ABA, Millia, Axl B: Hoss, Venom, Faust, Zappa, Dizzy, Sol, Robo, Chipp, Ky C: Johnny, Anji, I-No, Bridget

[JinSaotome]

I

S: Eddie, Test, Slayer, Po

A: Jam, Baiken, May, ABA, Millia, Axl

B: Hoss, Venom, Faust, Zappa, Sol, Robo, Chipp, Ky

C: Johnny, Anji, I-No, Bridget

Whoa wait, what?

also, list needs more Dizzy.

[Klaige]

yes it does. put dizzy somewhere in B. Also the Robo chipp ky thing isn't in order. I just consider him in somewhere in the lower half of B.

[shinquickman]

I really can't see Baiken over Pot, man.

Hmmm... prolly right.

I disagree with this assessment (Though it seems to be a very popular misconception.) Losing exchanges is one thing, but people seem to have this idea that even competent Axl players will throw things out randomly hoping to score a hit by chance. On the contrary, I contend that doing so marks an Axl player as incompetent.

As much as I try, I can't see it any other way (unless you're playing Pot, Rob, or Jon). Axl relies on tricking people to jumping and punishing them for it, yet at the same time there is no concrete manner that Axl can react to an opponent jumping. Likewise, there's no way someone can react to Axl's pokes, so one has to kinda guess if Axl will throw something out . Axl forces people to play like ST, where you're kinda gambling against one another.

USUALLY, the outcome of an Axl match is determined whether Axl throws out a poke at the right time or not.

Of course, there's more to Axl than just his pokes. He's got the rensen pressure when he's pinning, 5K whiffing, raiei shenanigans, counters... you know how he plays. However, they're not his most defining features either, more like add-ons to his poking game (counters vs people who try to mash against pokes, raiei after pokes to rile things up a bit, etc).

S: Eddie, Test, Slayer, Po

A: Jam, Baiken, May, ABA, Millia, Axl

B: Hoss, Venom, Faust, Zappa, Dizzy, Sol, Robo, Chipp, Ky

C: Johnny, Anji, I-No, Bridget

I wouldn't rank Johnny and Anji w/ Bridget or I-no, and I find it a stretch to have Chipp and Dizzy rank w/ chars like Zappa and Venom. ABA in A tier, maybe.

[Digital Watches]

As much as I try, I can't see it any other way (unless you're playing Pot, Rob, or Jon). Axl relies on tricking people to jumping and punishing them for it, yet at the same time there is no concrete manner that Axl can react to an opponent jumping. Likewise, there's no way someone can react to Axl's pokes, so one has to kinda guess if Axl will throw something out . Axl forces people to play like ST, where you're kinda gambling against one another.

USUALLY, the outcome of an Axl match is determined whether Axl throws out a poke at the right time or not.

Of course, there's more to Axl than just his pokes. He's got the rensen pressure when he's pinning, 5K whiffing, raiei shenanigans, counters... you know how he plays. However, they're not his most defining features either, more like add-ons to his poking game (counters vs people who try to mash against pokes, raiei after pokes to rile things up a bit, etc).

Eh, that's either highly old fashioned or just plain wrong. I don't know a ton about how #Reload was, so maybe it was like that back then, but as far as right now, in AC goes, you're missing the point by a mile and a half.

I think to understand it properly, you have to get a real grasp on what these moves ("Pokes") you claim are central to Axl's game are (I actually disagree with this. Honestly, I'd say Rensen is more important as a move, since it's a poke, a launcher, and the easiest way to get frame advantage, but that's a different story). And what they are are moves that have very good hitboxes for knocking someone out of the air from across the screen in a ridiculously short amount of time (Startup is 9F, I think the full extension is around frame 11 for 5P, maybe a little later for 2S). So when you say "Axl has no solid way to react to a jump," it raises a bit of a red flag. The reason I say this is because there's probably no character with a set of more solid anti-air tools in the game if you know how to recognize where on the screen your opponent is and what to do about it.

I mean, yes, guessing games are part of any fighter. But if you think AAing someone with Axl is a gamble more often than not, you're not playing the right Axls, period.

Personally, my theory is that people think nonsense like that because they're trying to think of Axl as a zoning character, which just doesn't work out (Maybe it did once, like I said, I don't know). I can name at least 4 characters off the top of my head that can zone circles around him, but that's the trick: Axl doesn't win risk-reward games trying to keep you out. Like I said, AA is a very good game for Axl because he can snipe you from the other side of the screen with a move that reaches really far really fast. But from that situation, the Axl player shouldn't be looking to keep the other person out, they should be trying to force a situation they don't like on them. Forcing them to either faultless, not tech, or take a lot of damage. That's just an example, but it comes up a ton.

But anyway, my point is: some people are dumb enough to let their health get chipped away trying to get in how they do against other characters, but once you figure out the easy ways for your character to approach Axl, there are some pretty good ways to do it, and then Axl loses, end of story. Axls who don't pick that up and still try to zone you get beat down hard, plain and simple, and it's because Axl's trick isn't keeping people out the whole match, it's getting a knockdown, or making you block some string he can rensen out of, and then not letting you get back to where you want to be, which is the rule in Guilty Gear, where zoning is the exception. His game doesn't center around trying to poke you to death, it centers around trying to bait something that'll get him on top of you, and then making it hard as hell to get him off (Whether that means outranging you or just normal oki bullshit) If you're playing Axls who try to keep you out all day (Unless your name is Potemkin), tell them to pick up Venom or Testament instead.

[Mechanica]

I think you're just bitter that Axl is gimmicky. (Though I, too, disagree with what that guy said about his anti-air and stuff.)

[Vicioso]

S: Eddie > Testament > Slayer A: Potemkin > Jam > May > Baiken B: Millia > Axl > A.B.A. > Venom > Robo-Ky > Faust C: Order-Sol > Dizzy > Zappa > Sol > Ky > Chipp > I-no D: Bridget > Johnny > Anji

[Digital Watches]

Robot that high and Sol that low? Ky and Sol under Zappa, Dizzy, and HOS?

[Vicioso]

um...yea..? lol you make it sound like thats completely absurd or something whats so wrong about it?

[Digital Watches]

um...yea..?

lol you make it sound like thats completely absurd or something

whats so wrong about it?

I guess it's not that absurd, except for Ky being under Dizzy. Dizzy isn't that strong, and Ky is probably B-tier material.

[Mechanica]

Sol needs more mixup to be higher in the tier list

[Digital Watches]

Sol needs more mixup to be higher in the tier list

VV RC-->Whateva. It's not great but it's not terrible. That, and having a command grab into meterless combo for nice damage can't hurt. I'd believe Sol low, but I'd also believe high B.

[Vicioso]

Dizzy seems pretty solid to me Ky B-tier??? i just cant see that, he just seems average, his damage output is beyond weak, he can do a little of everything but doesnt do anything that great, alot of characters are better than him imo

[Digital Watches]

Dizzy seems pretty solid to me

Ky B-tier???

i just cant see that, he just seems average, his damage output is beyond weak, he can do a little of everything but doesnt do anything that great, alot of characters are better than him imo

Eh, I guess you're right on Ky, but Dizzy is far from solid. She needs to set up to be dangerous at all, has no reliable reversals, is big and fat in the air, and in general has to work for a knockdown before she can really lay in on anyone. If she had wicked awesome damage output, I could see it, but all she's really got going for her is slightly above-average oki game.

(Of course this is all comparitive. I know Dizzy can hurt bad, but who in this game can't?)

[Mechanica]

VV RC-->Whateva.

True, but that needs lots of meter. Something he kinda has to burn to stay on top of his opponent. It is good though.

[Digital Watches]

True, but that needs lots of meter. Something he kinda has to burn to stay on top of his opponent. It is good though.

Eh, I dunno, a lot of characters have to burn meter to keep their offense going. I guess not THAT much meter, but still.

[shinquickman]

Eh, that's either highly old fashioned or just plain wrong. I don't know a ton about how #Reload was, so maybe it was like that back then, but as far as right now, in AC goes, you're missing the point by a mile and a half.

Woah there young whippersnapper. Axl match up is one I recognize very well, and me being able to go toe to toe w/ one of the better Axl's in America in Final Round might attest for that (though who knows? Maybe Smoov wasn't in his moment, I got lucky perhaps, w/e). I think there were some things I left unclear, so I'll try to explain better.

I think to understand it properly, you have to get a real grasp on what these moves ("Pokes") you claim are central to Axl's game are (I actually disagree with this. Honestly, I'd say Rensen is more important as a move, since it's a poke, a launcher, and the easiest way to get frame advantage, but that's a different story). And what they are are moves that have very good hitboxes for knocking someone out of the air from across the screen in a ridiculously short amount of time (Startup is 9F, I think the full extension is around frame 11 for 5P, maybe a little later for 2S). So when you say "Axl has no solid way to react to a jump," it raises a bit of a red flag. The reason I say this is because there's probably no character with a set of more solid anti-air tools in the game if you know how to recognize where on the screen your opponent is and what to do about it.

I mean, yes, guessing games are part of any fighter. But if you think AAing someone with Axl is a gamble more often than not, you're not playing the right Axls, period.

By pokes I just mean his long reach attacks (5P, 2P, 6K, 2S, 2H, even rensen). I guess by definition they aren't strictly 'pokes', so I'll just stick to saying reach attacks. So anyway Axl has 2 kinds of reach attacks. 1. Low-hitting reach attacks (2P, 2H, rensen) rewards Axl when an opponent doesn't jump (opponent gets guard meter built, takes chipping, start rush when blocked, etc) and the opponent will eat these all day unless he jumps, and for the most part, you can't react to these moves (rensen has, what, 8F startup, 13F full reach I think?). That's when you bring in 2. Anti-air pokes (5P, 6K, 2S). If your opponent jumps and you don't throw out a low hitting move, bam, free 50%. Now here's where Axl might run into trouble: what if your opponent doesn't jump? Of couse, throw out low-hit reach attacks all day. Build some tension maybe, start some rensen pressure. Uh oh, the opponent just airdashed over my rensen, I'm dead.

The major problem is you really don't know when your opponent will jump, if at all. Yes, Axl is probably the best air control character in the game, the problem is getting people there. What tools does Axl have to do that? Moves with high reach that hit low yet can get punished by air dashing over it. And obviously, it's not clean and cut that if an opponent guesses a low-hit attack comes out and jumps, that they'll be able to punish, but that risk still exists, and is a risk that can be well taken by most chars. Likewise, Axl players aren't just throwing out reach attacks all day. There are other factors that come into play, but in general, these attacks ARE key points to the match.

Personally, my theory is that people think nonsense like that because they're trying to think of Axl as a zoning character, which just doesn't work out (Maybe it did once, like I said, I don't know). I can name at least 4 characters off the top of my head that can zone circles around him, but that's the trick: Axl doesn't win risk-reward games trying to keep you out. Like I said, AA is a very good game for Axl because he can snipe you from the other side of the screen with a move that reaches really far really fast. But from that situation, the Axl player shouldn't be looking to keep the other person out, they should be trying to force a situation they don't like on them. Forcing them to either faultless, not tech, or take a lot of damage. That's just an example, but it comes up a ton.

I actually agree with a lot you have to say here. Axl is NOT a zoning char. I like to think of him as a rusher w/ reach ;p. As I mentioned before, his low hit reach attacks aren't there to keep people away, they're there to get your opponent moving, unlike guys like Venom and Ky, who are just trying to keep opponents at bay and then come in when the opportunity comes up.

But anyway, my point is: some people are dumb enough to let their health get chipped away trying to get in how they do against other characters, but once you figure out the easy ways for your character to approach Axl, there are some pretty good ways to do it, and then Axl loses, end of story. Axls who don't pick that up and still try to zone you get beat down hard, plain and simple, and it's because Axl's trick isn't keeping people out the whole match, it's getting a knockdown, or making you block some string he can rensen out of, and then not letting you get back to where you want to be, which is the rule in Guilty Gear, where zoning is the exception. His game doesn't center around trying to poke you to death, it centers around trying to bait something that'll get him on top of you, and then making it hard as hell to get him off (Whether that means outranging you or just normal oki bullshit) If you're playing Axls who try to keep you out all day (Unless your name is Potemkin), tell them to pick up Venom or Testament instead.

Hmmm... gotta disagree a bit on some things. Axl's main game IS keeping your opponent where they don't wanna be, but more in the sense of getting the opponent to stay in the ground or jump at the wrong time. Axl's rushdown is short and simple without tension, and it doesn't keep you down for that long. Plus knockdown is usually just a byproduct of hitting an opponent at the right time.

That's not to say that Axl's play style is inefficient. He's a char that puts people at risk at near any range. However, he does this while putting himself at risk as well. In that sense, he's a gambling character, which is why I say he plays like a ST character. I actually find it fun to fight an Axl player for this reason. It's a guessing game all around, so you're rewarded more for thinking like your opponent compared to other matches.

[Digital Watches]

Eh. It could be a playstyle thing, but throwing out low stuff in my opinion is only good when you're not really at that much risk if they jump (IE if they're already doing something or you're too far away for an IAD to get you before you can block.) I think there are better things to do from neutral, not the least of which is just try to get in (Stuff like 2K and 3P, or just running forward and FD breaking.) But yeah, I agree with a lot of what you're saying now that you phrase it differently. It'd be fun to play you some time. (And Smoov, for that matter.) I guess the only real problem I have with your list is... Your B tier is huge and your A tier is tiny! I think at least May, Axl, and ABA should be in A (And ABA's just too low in general)