GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[jabhadouken]

I believe they were discussing tiers irrelevant to this thread, causing great confusion to all.

Ah.

Thanks, heh.

With 8 or hours of sleep under my belt, it's all so very clear now, lol!

As to the discussion at hand, I think that both Teyah and Hellmonkey make valid points, as does ReaVer.

While the current B.O.B.s are finding new things out that very well could alter the tiers somewhat, the fact of the game having been out for nearly 2 years offers much credence to the established list, which had been created when all the top players were still active. It's highly doubtful that if an old-school player were to come out of hibernation that he/she would get jacked too hard for not knowing anything that's come out of late.

And, as ReaVer said, there's probably a significant chunk of active/semi-active top level players whose tech. and/or theory don't get all the shine that others' do.

[AtTheGates]

First of all, you can't build a tierlist around non-serious players. The top level is generally serious about how they play and they tend to be best in detecting actual game balance.

So how often do we see bottom tiers beat top tiers? Often enough, just look at SBO where not a single S tier character made it to the final, the highest was A tier Slayer, B tier May and B tier Venom. Not to mention that there was in fact a D tier present there.

Don't forget there's also a plentiful of very good players we don't even get to see because their matches aren't getting recorded. People barely see KZO for example, but he was able to kick Ogawa's ass as if Ogawa was just a noob during the 23on23 the last year. Another example would be Ruu beasting during the 23on23.

would have been the best post you ever wrote if you didn't bring KZO up again.

[reaVer]

For the convincing manner he beat Ogawa he deserves a honorable mention. Don't forget that people in Japan have to deal with uppercut spamming noobs every day of the week so KZO definitely did have something special to make him win that match.

[Digital Watches]

For the convincing manner he beat Ogawa he deserves a honorable mention. Don't forget that people in Japan have to deal with uppercut spamming noobs every day of the week so KZO definitely did have something special to make him win that match.

Like any upset, I'll be convinced it wasn't one when you show me more vids of it happening. Anyone can beat anyone once.

[reaVer]

Yeah, just like how Ogawa didn't get beat once during that SBO the day before :P Not to mention that KZO has actually the best SBO record for OS(still) being 3 wins and 3 losses despite not being present this time. Kaqn has a lot to make up for, Sanma just took his first loss like that:P and 0 is the most likely one to get a better record than KZO. And if KZO was using such one timer tactics we'd have a lot of idiots in SBO falling for it over and over again:rolleyes:

[Digital Watches]

I'm not saying KZO isn't good, but I think a victory has to be replicable to be conclusive. I don't know enough about KZO to question his general efficacy as a player, so I'm not quibbling with your assessment, but the means by which you defend it.

[rtl42]

in light of your quote from the wiki, i can see where you're coming from, but saying:

The proof is the absence of said discussion.

is a very weak justification of the argument, in and of itself. We could say the same thing about the Baiken forum, here, for example. No one's talking about high level Baiken play -- that must mean that everyone's a pro, because there's nothing to discuss!

On the other hand, if there had been some context provided, such as the tiers were hotly debated until roughly some interval in time, when there became a general consensus on some opinion, and then discussion dropped off -- it's more reasonable to see the connection between "no change in tiers" and "no discussion in tiers". ( still lacking in direct evidence, but that one's a bit tougher to prove.)

[Hellmonkey]

in light of your quote from the wiki, i can see where you're coming from, but saying:

is a very weak justification of the argument, in and of itself. We could say the same thing about the Baiken forum, here, for example. No one's talking about high level Baiken play -- that must mean that everyone's a pro, because there's nothing to discuss!

On the other hand, if there had been some context provided, such as the tiers were hotly debated until roughly some interval in time, when there became a general consensus on some opinion, and then discussion dropped off -- it's more reasonable to see the connection between "no change in tiers" and "no discussion in tiers". ( still lacking in direct evidence, but that one's a bit tougher to prove.)

Context was provided in my two posts leading up to that one.

edit: Wait, what? You didn't even quote the whole line.

"if there had been some context provided, such as the tiers were hotly debated until roughly some interval in time, when there became a general consensus on some opinion, and then discussion dropped off"

like when I said "The threads that were extremely active with said discussion are nowhere to be found these days." right after it? (when a thread is nowhere to be found on a forum, it means discussion dropped off!) The reason I took the time to translate the Wiki article was to show the general consensus.

Did you even read the posts? What are you trying to say?

[rtl42]

oh ffs >_< sorry, my bad.

[Teyah]

The proof is the absence of said discussion. I challenge you to find recent meaningful discussion on GGAC tiers anywhere. The threads that were extremely active with said discussion are nowhere to be found these days.

Since it's your assertion that the Japanese are saying these things about tiers, it's your duty to go out and bring forth supporting evidence, not mine. Please come back when you have some records of several top players saying these things, otherwise all you have is personal speculation that supports your views.

Regarding the wiki: as far as I know, that article could have been uploaded by a less experienced person who does not want to take a strong position on the subject of tiers. Please quote which, if any, top player(s) collaborated in the posting of that wiki article.

[Hellmonkey]

my duty? Don't patronize me. I've brought forth plenty of evidence, all of which you have so graciously ignored or felt was beneath you since you continue asking for it. Seriously don't even respond to my posts if you're just going to disagree and question my sources when you have none and don't know anything about what you criticize. You're a bad troll. Perhaps you aren't aware of how wikis work, or that GG wikis are easily the best centralized source of information for the game anywhere. I'm really curious as to how you feel qualified enough to post with such an arrogant tone.

[Blade]

I still don't know what O is.

[Teyah]

my duty? Don't patronize me. I've brought forth plenty of evidence, all of which you have so graciously ignored or felt was beneath you since you continue asking for it.

What? Please point out some evidence that doesn't include your opinion (note: this isn't evidence) or just stop posting altogether on this, as you've already reiterated your viewpoint several times. In fact, this is pretty much all you've done.

And yes, if you want to prove a point, you usually have to bring evidence to back up your point. Not just assume that the other party will go out there and meticulously hunt it down to support your case. The wiki is a start, but since (traditional) wikis can be edited anonymously and by anyone, one can't really consider that an authoritative source. How about quoting some statements made by some of that 'majority of qualified players', regarding their opinions on your asserted irrelevance of tier lists.

Seriously don't even respond to my posts if you're just going to disagree and question my sources when you have none and don't know anything about what you criticize.

Uh... why exactly would I need sources? I'm not trying to enforce my point onto the others in this thread, but simply questioning yours. Asking for support for your statements is not trolling in the least. It really sounds like your perceptions of my comments towards your argument is not in line with anything I'm actually asking of you.

[Hellmonkey]

Having you question everything I say about the Japanese community when you know absolutely nothing about it is trolling. You're asking me to prove a point that something ISN'T being discussed anymore. The proof is that the discussion is no longer there, which you somehow expect me to find quotes about from top players? Your ignorance regarding the Japanese GG community is painfully obvious. You're asking me to give names of top players who added to the wiki, when almost EVERYTHING in the online community is done anonymously. I even went as far to translate the article which sums up their attitude and you question that. (hilarious)

You're a fool, please stop.

I would say that discussing tiers is useful, because unlike the game engine, combo system, etc, tiers are not set it stone and change as players find optimal ways of playing each character. This thread is also a good way to outline the strengths/weaknesses of each character relative to the rest of the cast to newer players, and to answer related questions.

Could you please provide some proof that discussing tiers is useful? Can you provide some proof that this thread is effective at all in outlining the strengths and weaknesses of each character compared to the rest of the cast? Doesn't look to me like it's been useful at all! Have any quotes from top players supporting your statements?

[reaVer]

Having you question everything I say about the Japanese community when you know absolutely nothing about it is trolling. You're asking me to prove a point that something ISN'T being discussed anymore. The proof is that the discussion is no longer there, which you somehow expect me to find quotes about from top players? Your ignorance regarding the Japanese GG community is painfully obvious. You're asking me to give names of top players who added to the wiki, when almost EVERYTHING in the online community is done anonymously. I even went as far to translate the article which sums up their attitude and you question that. (hilarious)

You're a fool, please stop.

Noone has to know everything about everything, if everyone knew everything this forum wouldn't be necessary. And to summarize the rest of what you said: He's asking you whether you have any sources of information with an actual nametag on it. And you don't, you even admit you don't by saying something amongst the lines of: "LOL, wikis are anonymous, there's no way to tell!! But they really do!!! You're a fool, please stop!!!"

What you could do is look for other GG wikis, since if you got like 5 without discussion on them it seems a lot more likely, or for example if you got several GG forums where tiers are also no longer debated it also becomes more likely. But despite it being likely it could still be wrong, hence a nametag has been asked before. You could also just say its your own personal opinion and you concluded it from that wiki.

[Discotheque]

In the end, just saying that player skill covers for all aspect of character weakness is kind of at fault. The quote that Hellmonkey got was just the generic attitude that the Japanese GG community have toward the game (a true statement), but when you are listening to the match-vids and you're listening to the players/announcers at TRF/SBO/a-cho you can clearly see the distaste toward the S-A tiers (especially Slayer, Eddie, May, Jam, Potemkin) because of their relative ease to win against the lower tiers. It's true that almost all characters can win with 2-3 combos, but then there are characters that just lacks firepower (Millia, Johnny, Bridget, Chipp, Ky comes to mind) and watching May do 70% tensionless OHK combos, Slayer do 60-70% combos with counterhits, Jam to 60% wall loops with one FB puffball/ground gatling to 6HS, when Bridget/Johnny requires like 50% tension to do even 50% life combos just kinda screams wtf? I think in the end, the changes in tiers pretty much reflect how the general GG community in Japan saw how important it is for a character to do simple, big damage, because no matter how great you get at spacing, if you ever got baited once, you have a potential to instantly lose to the higher tiers, when with a lower tier, they have to work much harder knowing that they couldn't do even half-life combos. Game balance =/= tiers aren't important. Though AC tiers aren't that bad compared to other fighters.

[Teyah]

Having you question everything I say about the Japanese community when you know absolutely nothing about it is trolling.

I believe most people would call this being analytical and not just accepting something as fact because somebody on the internet stated it to be true. I'm sorry if this offends you.

You're asking me to prove a point that something ISN'T being discussed anymore.

Incorrect, what I asked of you was to prove that your beliefs about tiers being irrelevant at the top level of play, is also backed up by the majority of top players as you claim. How you get there is of no relevance to me. If you've cornered yourself into relying on a form of proof that isn't easily obtained, then perhaps you should find another way of gathering evidence for your viewpoint.

The proof is that the discussion is no longer there, which you somehow expect me to find quotes about from top players?

Since I'd rather not go in circles at this point, I'll try to give some advice to you here. It would be helpful to define exactly where "there" is, in the above statement. URLs of "the threads" that you've referenced earlier would also be a good place to start. Also, if discussion in several threads dropped off regarding tiers, I'm sure you can find a few conclusive posts before that happened, that indicate why tier discussion is not relevant anymore. It would be especially useful to your cause if some of these posts were made by respected top players.

Your ignorance regarding the Japanese GG community is painfully obvious. You're asking me to give names of top players who added to the wiki, when almost EVERYTHING in the online community is done anonymously. I even went as far to translate the article which sums up their attitude and you question that. (hilarious)

I don't question your translation of the article or the attitudes of the unknown author, but rather their credibility. If you read carefully, you would have seen that I was requesting for the names of top players in order to determine if the information that was translated was useful as an authoritative source. Of course I expected the wiki to be edited anonymously, as is generally the case (I even stated this in my last post).

You're a fool, please stop.

Could you please provide some proof that discussing tiers is useful? Can you provide some proof that this thread is effective at all in outlining the strengths and weaknesses of each character compared to the rest of the cast? Doesn't look to me like it's been useful at all! Have any quotes from top players supporting your statements?

Judgment of a thread's success is a much more subjective matter than saying something concrete like "tiers don't matter at top level play". I'm afraid your analogy doesn't apply here, and I would appreciate if you'd try to be more mature in the future and post without resorting to personal insults.

[Hintalove]

I can understand millia/ky/buri/chip on the low damage list, but johnny? Wtf? Have you ever been hit by a johnny when he didn't have 25% tension? That and combined with the fact that if he pressured you into a combo you probably have some guardbar. Sure he needs 25% for the kj frc, which he probably has if he didn't start the combo off something like ensenga rc, but come on... How can you even compare ky's damage out put to johnny's? If you get hit by the wrong thing when he's at lvl 2 you're fuxed. Sure its not like dot frc fuxed, but it's not "Oh noes I didn't block ky's mixup right:toot: ". Don't confuse low tier with doing little damage:vbang: Judging from your list, it brings to mind something I never really thought about, but one way to look at the tiering for AC is Damage > Mixup. In AC the ability to consistantly deal stupid damage outweighs the ability to repeatedly pin down and force a combo out of your opponent and/or the ability to produce the proper situation to put your opponent in the position to guess wrong. All of the characters you listed are based around repeatedly breaking your opponents guard and doing combos back into kd to reset the situation. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense, considering that while millia corner pressure is hard to escape, regardless of your character you usually get at least 2 free shots to escape, and if you can end her in two combos, that basically means if you can get her knocked down, she really only has to misblock one mixup and all her work has gone to nothing. Same with chip, although he's a little harder to get away from and pin down. Never really thought about it in that way, especially because even though I play a more power oriented character I still like to aim for mixup over damage, building them up to the point that I can trick them into letting me hit them with something big, whereas the more successful OS players spend the majority of their efforts on building charge to hit savage fang or something else big and painful. After writting all that, I think I basically re-affirmed(at least to me) that AC tiers are directly dictated by stupid damage potential, even though I didn't want to believe it.

[reaVer]

Then tell me why Sol is C tier:P

[Chomite]

Or I-No

[dejeuner]

I can understand millia/ky/buri/chip on the low damage list, but johnny? Wtf? Have you ever been hit by a johnny when he didn't have 25% tension?

Have you ever been hit by a Johnny when he was at level 1?

[JackG]

I can understand millia/ky/buri/chip on the low damage list, but johnny? Wtf? Have you ever been hit by a johnny when he didn't have 25% tension? That and combined with the fact that if he pressured you into a combo you probably have some guardbar. Sure he needs 25% for the kj frc, which he probably has if he didn't start the combo off something like ensenga rc, but come on... How can you even compare ky's damage out put to johnny's? If you get hit by the wrong thing when he's at lvl 2 you're fuxed. Sure its not like dot frc fuxed, but it's not "Oh noes I didn't block ky's mixup right:toot: ". Don't confuse low tier with doing little damage:vbang:

Judging from your list, it brings to mind something I never really thought about, but one way to look at the tiering for AC is Damage > Mixup. In AC the ability to consistantly deal stupid damage outweighs the ability to repeatedly pin down and force a combo out of your opponent and/or the ability to produce the proper situation to put your opponent in the position to guess wrong. All of the characters you listed are based around repeatedly breaking your opponents guard and doing combos back into kd to reset the situation. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense, considering that while millia corner pressure is hard to escape, regardless of your character you usually get at least 2 free shots to escape, and if you can end her in two combos, that basically means if you can get her knocked down, she really only has to misblock one mixup and all her work has gone to nothing. Same with chip, although he's a little harder to get away from and pin down. Never really thought about it in that way, especially because even though I play a more power oriented character I still like to aim for mixup over damage, building them up to the point that I can trick them into letting me hit them with something big, whereas the more successful OS players spend the majority of their efforts on building charge to hit savage fang or something else big and painful.

After writting all that, I think I basically re-affirmed(at least to me) that AC tiers are directly dictated by stupid damage potential, even though I didn't want to believe it.

Then tell me why Sol is C tier:P

or HOS, or Venom, or Axl, or Robo.... You see where I'm going with this?

Basically EVERYONE (cept usually Buri and Chipp, but even they have their moments) can deal stupid damage in this game (I define "stupid" as >=60%.) However, you say mixup pales in comparison to big damage, but look at S-tier characters, Slayer Testament and Eddie. Sure they all do big damage (Like I said basically everyone in this game does) but you'll notice these characters all have <20 frame hard to see overheads, all very comboable. Not only that, but their mixup outside of that is also pretty absurd. Sure Eddie is the best due to his damage and unblockables that lead into more damage, but the amount of mixup you get with little Eddie is obscene when you compare that to most characters. Hell even Potemkin wouldn't be as obscene if he didn't have amazing mixup coupled with amazing damage. Essentially, I'm saying you need a good combination of both mixup and damage to really succeed overall. You bring up Milla going down 2 tier spots (and you'll find a lot of people who disagree with that) as a sign that mixup isn't as important as damage. However, characters like Millia, Chip, and I-no's great mixup don't really account for the lack of damage they deal and the more damage they receive. All in all, mixup is really quite important, but you'll notice that the best characters in the game have big damage as well as great mixup.

[Hellmonkey]

Keep in mind there is a lot to game balance aside from just damage and ability to mix up to deal it. A perfect example of this is Baiken, who is definitely not a weak character. She has average damage for accent core, most of which requires tension, especially against some characters, and she does not gain this tension very quickly. She has a few decent pokes but overall her options are horribly limited if she's not close in, and even then her moves are slow and she struggles. Her mixup is trash unless she has 50% and/or she's in the corner with a knockdown, and even then it has some serious flaws. The reason, of course, that she is still a strong character is that she has arguably the best defensive options in the game. My point is that defensive ability and zoning ability are every bit as important as damage. Yes, you hear people complain about top tier characters hitting the opponent once and winning, but what about when they're getting raped and reset because they have no options out, or when they get hit by something most characters wouldn't just because their hitbox is bigger, or when they can't get in because they get zoned relatively easily? (lol slayer) You rarely hear people go "wow, that character has no way in!" because they consider them easy or strong due to their high damage/offensive ability. I believe most people take for granted that finding a way to get in and deal huge damage, even with the "best" characters in the game, is often every bit as hard as dealing with them with "lower tier" characters. Every character in the game has numerous strengths and flaws, and each of these components contribute to balance depending solely on how the players utilize them. Having superior matchup knowledge/execution will always always always give you an advantage in any matchup.

[qwerty]

I can understand millia/ky/buri/chip on the low damage list, but johnny? Wtf? Have you ever been hit by a johnny when he didn't have 25% tension? That and combined with the fact that if he pressured you into a combo you probably have some guardbar. Sure he needs 25% for the kj frc, which he probably has if he didn't start the combo off something like ensenga rc, but come on... How can you even compare ky's damage out put to johnny's? If you get hit by the wrong thing when he's at lvl 2 you're fuxed. Sure its not like dot frc fuxed, but it's not "Oh noes I didn't block ky's mixup right:toot: ". Don't confuse low tier with doing little damage:vbang:

johnny's maximum damage is very good, no doubt. combos off of level 2's (especially with a kj frc) can deal up to 60% damage with a neutral guard bar (and likewise, more with a high guard bar).

but, johnny's average damage (normals, level 1's, etc.) is mediocre at best. his most damaging normals (5H, 6H, 2H, j.H) are all pretty risky moves with very long recovery, so usually followups aren't possible/probable (i mean, i can sometimes do an air to ground j.H -> ensenga for some decent damage, but that's pretty rare). even though the potential to do lots of damage is there, it can't really be harnessed unless he has a level 2 and/or 25% tension.

and if you want to talk about mixups, guess what- johnny doesn't have any. all he can do to pressure is constant raping of the guard bar via mc strings and wait for the opponent to leave an opening to capitalize on. this is especially frustrating for johnny players, because even if they have a level 2/3 for faster mist canceling, they can still only do as much damage as their opponent will allow them to.

AC tiers are directly dictated by stupid damage potential

if this was true, johnny would be at least b tier. but because he has such slow, shitty normals and no viable mixup options, he has to wait for his opponent to leave an opening to land any decent damage. and against characters like millia, jam and aba, this can be pretty hard.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Um, I-no can do a shitload of damage. Damage is definitely NOT her weakpoint. I would say mixup does end up being somewhat irrelevant at the highest levels of play because those players have seen all the mixups and have become pretty adept at either blocking them or simply avoiding them. After that, it ends up coming down to how else a character can get their damage. One thing that all three of the characters you mentioned have in common is that they don't require any kind of setup to access their big-time damage. All Slayer needs is 75% Tension and an opening...ANY opening. You make one miniscule fuckup and you just might die. Testament completely controls the screen, so you're gonna get hit with something at one point or another...and pretty much everything goes into Badlands loop. Eddie is the same, just give him one opening and he can rape your lifebar easily...it's not so much mixup as it is that SO MUCH is coming at you that something is bound to hit you. They just exert too much control over the playing field. 2D fighters are rarely dominated by overpowered mixups. It always comes down to control. The other characters just don't have the same tools. Jam does MASSIVE damage if she can hit you, but ask any Jam player and they'll tell you that landing that hit is more difficult than you think it is when you're fighting someone good.