GenoWhirl Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 Okay guys, we need to compile VS Tager info quick because that matchup sucks balls for us. -Tager 360B > Anything we can do damage wise. - Blocked J.2C = GETB -If we're magnetized we're screwed because ATOMIC CORRIDAH = sealed air game -GETB -Sledge > Everthing we do Just...what do we do here!?
Tari Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 Backdash, poles + lightning still work if you're at distance, watch out for spark bolt, use 236b/c against his aerial approach. I'd suggest using 6a and j.c as an anti-air, but I'm not really sure how effective those are, especially considering that 6a clashes with Tager's air moves way too often. Don't cat chair unless it's obviously going to work. You'll find yourself eating a 360b more often than not, if you try doing it on Gadget Finger wakeup and the likes. Speaking of which, against Gadget Finger, you can try 5a, 6cd, superjump j.2dc (CH lvl2 j.2c can lead to 4.5-5k damage), backdash (though you're probably better off just doing 6cd or blocking), or blocking. 6cd will get through atomic collider and all ground throws, but is beaten by any normal attack.
Kuuhaku Posted January 26, 2010 Posted January 26, 2010 Gadget Finger turns into a giant guessing game. If you guess right, you can get out and get some distance. If you guess wrong you're dead. Your options are A) mash 5A -Stuffs normals and AC, but loses to 360A B) sj+j2C or just get out with wind if you don't feel confident -Wins against some normals and 360A, but loses to AC 3) backdash + wind -Probably the least safe of your options, but decent if you call it right. Frog is still good against Tager. You can still punish with pumpkin + wind when he tries to kill it, and George out keeps you safe during your block strings. Tager's still large and relatively easy to pressure and combo. Just considering Rachel can no longer kill him in 1-2 combos while he certainly can kill us in 2-3 combos it's a matter of guessing right and playing it safe.
K2 Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Yes, memorize the above. and the following Start of the game Best Jump away - you really want to stay away Bad 6B is decent if you guess he is going to sledge u , but he can jump, 5c or 2D...so best to jump away Distance apart Your #1 goal Frog>cannon>wind>have tager to block>run in high low mix up game>run away>loop How to stop tager getting from in cannon x n + frog x + 6b : you will need your 6B to stop tager using sledge, get use to the distance, is better to IB the sledge if he is too close, a wrong dicision will cost you big. and don't be afraid to use ur wind to get urself out, he is slow, u have time to restock. He will Spark ball you when you see he can ball you, stop cannon frog pumpkin immediately. his balls beats everything. Tager will even waste his ball just to magnetize on block. so try your best to dbl jump over it. Stop Tager when he is high above 6A. NO! don't do it! he will beat/clash your 6a, and his body slam will bait you out cuz that thing delays. If u can read him well u can shj J.C. but best is to set poles around and when he is high up, Iris him or even lily him for best anti air. if he is not that high above, ur 6a will work. Mid RangeMid range somewhat = close range for tager b/c his attack covers the screen XD Your Goal - IB and run away Learn how to IB properly, you can get away from slegde if you instant block it. To beginners ( thats y u are reading this), do not hold barrier and jump, it gives you jump delay and you will get hit! you need to instant block>jump>barrier. but ofcourse, he can anti air grab you, against tager is all about guessing. after IB slegde you can even start 5a combo. You will probabily be magnetized Walk backwards and somewhat backdash. spam backdashing will cause a bigger vacuum effect. at times like this you already lost. cuz tager will do everything and attack, but this means he will make mistakes, even he is not his attacks are slow. use 6b and 6a wisely, all up to ur playing skills, just don't jump cuz they are 90% waiting for it and anti air grab you. if anything, the best is to u eat a grab...hopefully not the super grab... Best is to eat a grab - after Gatgeto Fingaa so this is a rediculous RPS game. He wins 3 games doing 4k each you are dead. and you will need to win 6 and hopefully doing 2k each to win. and by the time he got close he probabily need to do 2 to kill you. ugh. so, in terms of "mind" games, tager doesn't think you will mash and eat a buster on the spot ( so don't be a scrub) so wt you need to do is read Bohemian Polka's post above. and you best option is to be grabed ( hopefully not the super one) and lose 2.5k instead of 4k combo from baiting. keep this in mind for you guessing game. Note that mind game does not play a major role, is all about guessing. little tips to increase your chance of winning 1) plz plz plz don't fall for anti air grab tech trap. when it comes it ussaully launch you realllly high up, so don't tech. Tager has a 40% proration rate, so even the combo lasted for 30sec and does 50 hits, is not going to exceed 5k, always 4klish. unless you eat a fatal counter. 2) know when to burst, plz don't waste your burst on stuipd things such as 5aaaaa>combo , burst away when you eat a no protation start up. you want to burst away and keep urself healthy, if you fall behind in HP war you are most likely to lose. 3)keep an eye on spark ball meter ALWAYS, rmb tager does the same, he is waiting for it to charge 4)put a token down before you play so u can play again 5) if your are brave, u can jump in and bait for his 2c,upclose jump will bait tager doing 2c 90% of the times b/c the reward is too big for him. so u can IB block it>land>combo :P 6) don't be afriad to do little pokes such a ja>bc>jc and then get away. if you just sit there all the time your games will be directed by tager. small pokes like this will buy u tension , time, and mess up his game play, a bit. but knowing when to use it is another thing, up to ur skills.
Tari Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Just figured I'd point this out here, but if you get 360'd after Gadget Finger, you'll end up on the floor being Gadget Finger'd again. Do not just sit there and get thrown. The best thing (not easiest or safest thing) you can do after Gadget Finger is guess properly. For example, if the other player likes doing 360s and Atomic Collider, a short hop 3d will get by all three moves and allow you to attack, as will 6cd (which is probably the better choice of the two, actually). If he tries to attack you, 5a has the potential to win or cause a double counterhit. You can IB followup attacks from Gadget Finger, as well, but you run the risk of just being 360'd or stuck in Tager pressure again (whereas with attacking, your main concern is 360a). If you're going to block, block low until you see the overhead coming. Otherwise, he'll just 3c you back into Gadget Finger. If you're feeling very sure that he's going to attack you, not grab you, you also have the option of going straight into 2c. It's suicide if he uses a 360, 720, or expects it and just blocks, so it's a pretty dangerous option. Things like 6cd after Gadget Finger will make them think twice about doing 360 or AC after that move, which may allow you chances to land 2c or j.2c out of Gadget Finger into 3-4k combos. You have to remember that it's a guessing game for both us and the Tager player. They just have an offensive and damage-dealing advantage in it.
Jason D. Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Sad to say, but I don't think 6cd beats throws. I've tried it during a few common throw setups, like after a Gadget Finger or an IBed Sledgehammer, and I've still been thrown. And once, while magnetized and at fork range, I did it at the same time as the Tager did a 720. In the blink of an eye, I was sucked in and grabbed. I think the 6c takes a few moments before it's technically off the ground. But that being said, I'm finding the 6cd really effective on Tager in general. For instance, at mid-range it'll beat a Sledge or 5D, and she can do some pretty decent damage (for Rachel) after it. And if he does block it, he can't duck the j.C, so you can keep up the combo. Mostly, it's just that hit or block you're going to shove him across the screen and hopefully into the corner. Tager has a pretty hard time getting out of her corner pressure. Just keep in mind that he can (and WILL) try to Sledge out of the corner, so just throw plenty of 6Bs in until he learns better.
Jason D. Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Also, I get a sneaking suspicion that Tari is stalking me...
Tari Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Sad to say, but I don't think 6cd beats throws. I've tried it during a few common throw setups, like after a Gadget Finger or an IBed Sledgehammer, and I've still been thrown. And once, while magnetized and at fork range, I did it at the same time as the Tager did a 720. In the blink of an eye, I was sucked in and grabbed. I think the 6c takes a few moments before it's technically off the ground. But that being said, I'm finding the 6cd really effective on Tager in general. For instance, at mid-range it'll beat a Sledge or 5D, and she can do some pretty decent damage (for Rachel) after it. And if he does block it, he can't duck the j.C, so you can keep up the combo. Mostly, it's just that hit or block you're going to shove him across the screen and hopefully into the corner. Tager has a pretty hard time getting out of her corner pressure. Just keep in mind that he can (and WILL) try to Sledge out of the corner, so just throw plenty of 6Bs in until he learns better. The Tagers you played against actually were saying their 360s whiffed on your 6cd on Gadget Finger wakeup. Needs more testing, then, but I was going by what they were telling me after they played you. :P Edit: Wh-what? Stalking? O-of course I'm not! But yeah, what you said about 6cd being on the ground for a little bit sounds pretty accurate. Still wanna test it, though. :P
GenoWhirl Posted January 30, 2010 Author Posted January 30, 2010 hypothesis... Would TK'd pumpkin beat throws?
Tari Posted January 30, 2010 Posted January 30, 2010 hypothesis... Would TK'd pumpkin beat throws? Yes, but I don't know how it fares against AC.
TD Posted January 31, 2010 Posted January 31, 2010 l don't have much problems sgainst tager. Just zone and pole away. This puts tager on the defensive, so you can slip in a pumpkin or frog. lf you find yourself too close wind is your best friend. Either get out or rush down if you're magnetized. And for heaven's sake, do NOT give him an opening.
Kuuhaku Posted February 2, 2010 Posted February 2, 2010 Your poke game and normals still > his. Though I don't see how just sitting there and zoning him would work because it didn't work in CT. He can Sledge through both TD and BBL. It sucks. He can also sledge, back dash, react to pretty much all your projectiles and zoning attempts. But... overall your normals still beat his. So do what you can with pokes, then space yourself to get out George/pumpkin and try again. You can also do basic tricks like punish him for trying to kill George. 214A can still beat out Spark Bolt and not get you magnetized, but the timing is strict so you basically have to psychic it. It's better to just super jump it. On the plus side- Tager's also huge so j3DB still works reliably. jC also hits him on crouch.
GenoWhirl Posted March 7, 2010 Author Posted March 7, 2010 I HAVE FOUND THE ANSWER TO GADGET FINGER http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nt68LdXeXA&NR=1#t=14m55s
Kuuhaku Posted May 7, 2010 Posted May 7, 2010 Gadget Finger is really the least of your worries. Worry more about getting hit with Rachel specifics. 5A = 5 frames and your BFF (just don't get 360ed/720ed because of it). If Tager's trying to hit you though, 5A is pretty pro.
Dacidbro Posted May 7, 2010 Posted May 7, 2010 Gadget finger is not the least of Rachel's worries. Your super jump wind out still loses to 5A, I believe, but yes, it is a good options (GF = +2 for tager, Rachel's jump = 4 frames, Tager's 5A = 7 frames? But I still see people that try to jump out get auto hit by Tager 5A every time, so I dunno). Just realize 5A 5B 3C goes back to GF every time, so it's not a free out.
Jason D. Posted May 8, 2010 Posted May 8, 2010 Hey, some more talk about CS matchups. I like this! Okay, so after a lot more matches with Mike Z, I can positively say that this matchup is all sorts of wrong for Rachel. For starters, Tager can do about 5K damage, meterless, off a 360 A or B. In fact, humorously, I think the A 360 does more damage. And it was about 6.2K if Tager has enough meter for a Magna-tech Wheel. So yes, you can die in two hits. More disturbingly though, she has gaps in pretty much every hit of her blockstrings, so it is quite easy for Tager to IB command grab. Assuming you're not playing a bad opponent, try to keep your block strings short. If the Tager starts spinning the stick frantically during his blockstun (or if you're from the future: you're online and you can imagine him spinning like a maniac), he'll probably luck his way into the IB for the 360 or 720. Jump cancel something if you can (5B), or chain into a 3C. The 3C is actually great, because it is a tight combo even during an IB, and it usually hits since ol' spinny probably won't be blocking low. But okay, so on the positive side. For one, Rachel's 6CD is quite effective. (Oh, and for the record, it will NOT beat a grab unless you started it much earlier. She is not technically off the ground at the beginning, even if the sprite looks like she is.) It does good damage, he can't duck it, it beats some of his mid-screen options, and there is nothing funnier than being magnetized, doing it at the same time as his 5D, and hitting and dragging him at super-speed. Just keep in mind that on block he can IB the j.C at the end and 360 you. But you can also jump cancel the j.C, so there you go, options. If he ever does 5D and cancels it into the B Sledge, that's a free 2C for you. There's no reason not to do it. Also, jump cancelling your 5B into 2BD works great against Tager, due to his size. It's especially useful if he blocks the 5B and you don't want to get thrown, as mentioned above. If you hit him with a combo while he's standing, you don't need to do the D in the standard 5CDC. His standing hit animation moves his arms way in front of his body. You can just do 5CC, and then the C lobelia. No wind needed. It's economical, you don't have to worry about delaying the lobelia, and it looks awesome. And for another fun thing, let's say he's in the corner blocking, and you do 5CDC into the A lobelia. After he blocks the fireball, he'll try to 360/720 you. (I've yet to meet a Tager who didn't.) What you should do, is jump. He CANNOT grab you after this. The A lobelia recovery is too fast. But you being right next to him will definitely fool him. Jump, then punish. Abuse this while you still can! Oh, and as for Gadget Finger, a winded backdash will get you out of all his usual followups. However, this gets beaten by a standing 5C, which unfortunately can then be comboed into the Collider, and then so on. Thankfully, Tagers won't use this move at all until they get wise to the wind backdash. At which point, your 5A will beat out his 5C easily. And then it'll all go full-circle, and he'll start mixing in throws again. Still not a great situation, I know, but that's the best options I've come up with.
Alex073088 Posted May 8, 2010 Posted May 8, 2010 Hey, some more talk about CS matchups. I like this! Okay, so after a lot more matches with Mike Z, I can positively say that this matchup is all sorts of wrong for Rachel. For starters, Tager can do about 5K damage, meterless, off a 360 A or B. In fact, humorously, I think the A 360 does more damage. And it was about 6.2K if Tager has enough meter for a Magna-tech Wheel. So yes, you can die in two hits. More disturbingly though, she has gaps in pretty much every hit of her blockstrings, so it is quite easy for Tager to IB command grab. Assuming you're not playing a bad opponent, try to keep your block strings short. If the Tager starts spinning the stick frantically during his blockstun (or if you're from the future: you're online and you can imagine him spinning like a maniac), he'll probably luck his way into the IB for the 360 or 720. Jump cancel something if you can (5B), or chain into a 3C. The 3C is actually great, because it is a tight combo even during an IB, and it usually hits since ol' spinny probably won't be blocking low. But okay, so on the positive side. For one, Rachel's 6CD is quite effective. (Oh, and for the record, it will NOT beat a grab unless you started it much earlier. She is not technically off the ground at the beginning, even if the sprite looks like she is.) It does good damage, he can't duck it, it beats some of his mid-screen options, and there is nothing funnier than being magnetized, doing it at the same time as his 5D, and hitting and dragging him at super-speed. Just keep in mind that on block he can IB the j.C at the end and 360 you. But you can also jump cancel the j.C, so there you go, options. If he ever does 5D and cancels it into the B Sledge, that's a free 2C for you. There's no reason not to do it. Also, jump cancelling your 5B into 2BD works great against Tager, due to his size. It's especially useful if he blocks the 5B and you don't want to get thrown, as mentioned above. If you hit him with a combo while he's standing, you don't need to do the D in the standard 5CDC. His standing hit animation moves his arms way in front of his body. You can just do 5CC, and then the C lobelia. No wind needed. It's economical, you don't have to worry about delaying the lobelia, and it looks awesome. And for another fun thing, let's say he's in the corner blocking, and you do 5CDC into the A lobelia. After he blocks the fireball, he'll try to 360/720 you. (I've yet to meet a Tager who didn't.) What you should do, is jump. He CANNOT grab you after this. The A lobelia recovery is too fast. But you being right next to him will definitely fool him. Jump, then punish. Abuse this while you still can! Oh, and as for Gadget Finger, a winded backdash will get you out of all his usual followups. However, this gets beaten by a standing 5C, which unfortunately can then be comboed into the Collider, and then so on. Thankfully, Tagers won't use this move at all until they get wise to the wind backdash. At which point, your 5A will beat out his 5C easily. And then it'll all go full-circle, and he'll start mixing in throws again. Still not a great situation, I know, but that's the best options I've come up with. thanks for sharing with us. Are you incredibly sure that 5d, into slegde b will get hit by chat chair everytime? In ct, boy oh boy you have to instant block or you would be stuck entirely in a frame trap. Both those moves did stupid amounts of guard stun. and was a little bit abuseable on rachel. I mentioned in the tager for ct thread vs rachel (i think it was that thread or rachel free for all) that tager can 5b>instant block> command throw but people didnt take me seriously about it. its incredibly annoying. although we really dont get anything for pressure an opponents block anymore anyway since frog and pumpkin tools are so damn nerfed. Have you found any tagers doing any backdash spamming on you? what moves can punish him? we no longer can rely on j.2c because of its none cancalation options.
Jason D. Posted May 8, 2010 Posted May 8, 2010 Yes, I'm positive that the chair will beat 5D - B Sledge. I've done it hundreds of times now, both with and without Instant Blocking. Though to be fair, it may not work at point blank range, as I've never had a Tager try a 5D without at least a little distance between. And I should also mention, be careful not to do the 2C too early. It can clash with the Sledge, and if the Tager is quick enough to realize what just happened, it's a free throw for him. Ideally, what should happen is this: He does the sledge startup, you start the chair, he hits into your auto-guard, and then you shock him. If, instead, his hit frame meets your hit frame, it'll clash. But this is only really a concern if he did the 5D from really far away, and maybe you gave yourself some extra time via IB. Normally, you can just mash 2C when coming out of blockstun, and you'll be just fine. And as for backdash, I have played Tagers that use it a lot, but I've never had any real problem with it. Just don't do any slow attacks from close distance, or throw yourself forward while poking, and it won't matter much if he backdashes or not. For instance, let's say you're in 5B or 6B range, and you throw that out and he backdashes it. He just put himself out of grab range, and probably into the range where your normals are better than his. So good for him. His backdash is great when he's in the corner, but if he is there I'm just standing out of grab range and doing the lobelia spam anyway. And it's also good against airdashes, but you shouldn't be approaching by air. He has too many anti-airs, and even on a trade (Fatal!), the damage is NOT in your favor.
Alex073088 Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 Yes, I'm positive that the chair will beat 5D - B Sledge. I've done it hundreds of times now, both with and without Instant Blocking. Though to be fair, it may not work at point blank range, as I've never had a Tager try a 5D without at least a little distance between. And I should also mention, be careful not to do the 2C too early. It can clash with the Sledge, and if the Tager is quick enough to realize what just happened, it's a free throw for him. Ideally, what should happen is this: He does the sledge startup, you start the chair, he hits into your auto-guard, and then you shock him. If, instead, his hit frame meets your hit frame, it'll clash. But this is only really a concern if he did the 5D from really far away, and maybe you gave yourself some extra time via IB. Normally, you can just mash 2C when coming out of blockstun, and you'll be just fine. And as for backdash, I have played Tagers that use it a lot, but I've never had any real problem with it. Just don't do any slow attacks from close distance, or throw yourself forward while poking, and it won't matter much if he backdashes or not. For instance, let's say you're in 5B or 6B range, and you throw that out and he backdashes it. He just put himself out of grab range, and probably into the range where your normals are better than his. So good for him. His backdash is great when he's in the corner, but if he is there I'm just standing out of grab range and doing the lobelia spam anyway. And it's also good against airdashes, but you shouldn't be approaching by air. He has too many anti-airs, and even on a trade (Fatal!), the damage is NOT in your favor. cant he just slegde through your lobelia spamming though, and in your previous post i noticed that you mentioned the combo 5b>5cc>lobelia a, i saw a tager slegde it on a recent rachel getting owned against tager match, also in ct normally if my 5b was backdashed, i got owned for it. 5b is really bad on recovery. does is backdash have a longer recovery or, does he go back further?
God_Of_Olympus Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 why are you close to TAGER IN CT? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS..I DON'T EVEN..
Alex073088 Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 why are you close to TAGER IN CT? WHAT IS THIS MADNESS..I DON'T EVEN.. i rush ct tager's ass down! i rush everyone down for the most part with ct rachel. i only zone when players run away, which they always always do. if they dont they get recked. im going to have to upload some vids of me raping tager and other characters one of these days. In cs though, you cannot zone nor rush tager down. in fact if we dont get a balance patch, i plan to counter tagers way through my zoning by using my nerfed useless pumpkin to counter his methods. Afterward just repeat the progress.
MisterBadguy Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 As much as I hate to admit it, Alex is right here. CT Tager's pretty simple to rush down as long as you're careful. You just have to think of him as a mini Hakumen, just nowhere near as good defensively. Take care in selecting your mix-ups and watch for IBs. But I digress, this is clearly a CS thread, a game I have yet to play and know nothing about. Back to those in the know...
Jason D. Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 cant he just slegde through your lobelia spamming though, and in your previous post i noticed that you mentioned the combo 5b>5cc>lobelia a, i saw a tager slegde it on a recent rachel getting owned against tager match, also in ct normally if my 5b was backdashed, i got owned for it. 5b is really bad on recovery. does is backdash have a longer recovery or, does he go back further? You don't really spam JUST lobelias. I was just being cute. I usually do something like A lobelia, then 5B into A lobelia, then a short dash forward and 6B into A lobelia. Mixing up normals and lobelias like that can severely hold him down in the corner. And I mentioned no such combo, and... I honestly have no idea what you're referring to. However, just to add something, if you're talking about something like 5B, 5CDC, A Lobelia as a blockstring, it's okay in the corner, but NEVER do it mid-screen. He can Sledge the lobelia, yes, but more importantly, he can also do a grab and catch you before the lobelia touches him. If you do 5CDC mid-screen and he's blocking, cancel into a winded 3C. Or else. And no, as far as I can tell neither Tager's backdash or Rachel's 5B were changed. It sounds like you were just doing the move too close. If you're using the 5B to poke you should do it at close to maximum range. Let's say around when only the far half of the whirlwind would touch him. If he backdashed your 5B because you chained something like 5A to 5B or 2B to 5B and he Instant Blocked the first hit, then sure, he can do that. But he can also just IB and then grab. The backdash doesn't add anything there. Also, as counter-intuitive as it may sound, yes it is better to be close to Tager. Specifically, just outside his grab range. Where your 5B, 6B, and A lobelias are going to reign supreme. Zoning him can keep him away, but it doesn't really do much else. You'll just be relying on lucky hits to do crap damage. And if he's smart and patient enough, he's just going to block and sledge everything. He can do it all day. It's not like you're going to guard crush him. Zoning Tager really only serves to waste time, and wasting time gives Tager Spark Bolts.
killionaire Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 And before we go on, I remind you to please listen to the person with more high-level experience. Chances are that the person's right. Just a precaution.
sanshiki Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 I concur with Jason D. regarding the CS matchup. Rachel is forced to go on the offensive, or set ups for an offensive approach. Doing anything else will get you killed. Tried pure zoning before and it only ended up with myself running out of wind gauge trying to keep a spark bolt ready Tager away. Since keepaway is the tactic being used, getting magnetised by a blocked spark happens more frequently and then forced to block a string is retardedly advantageous on Tager's side. Seizing control with pumpkins at the start and moving Tager to the corner with 6C loop combos is much more effective. Tager has no real reversals save for backdash till he gets 50% heat. Abuse that fact and pin him down in the corner with wakeup frog and pokes. Use all your wind to score your successful hits and knock him down again and again. Always bait his MTG or 720 when he gets the heat and keep your strings unpredictable. Tager has such a shit time getting away from the corner you have to push every bit of advantage you have in that situation till he finally breaks free with 50 heat/spark. Then its back to zoning/dealing with spark bolt magnetism and hoping that you can get them to waste their meter asap. Tager with MTG/ 720 can turn the match in an instant and you don't want to even make a situation where that possibility exists.
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