[CS1] Bang vs Ragna

[Dacidbro]

Gonna kick these off the ground, no time to keep waiting

Will update to look more professional later, when there's more info to throw around and I have time to waste with the cosmetics.

Part A

Wait, I don't have an advantage?

Yeah, Ragna and Bang are pretty even overall. You're gonna really need to put everything your character has to use here, there's no one-strat beats all solution for Ragna. However, there are a couple things in particular that work well.

5A and 5B are like always fantastic pokes, and they're gonna be faster than a lot of things Ragna has. These are certainly going to be some of your most effective mashes, particularly for interrupting his 6B, or after you IB Hells Fang. Rule of thumb is use 5A if you're close/don't have time, 5B if you're too far for 5A or do have time.

However, lets face it, you're gonna have to block, a lot. Ragna has some fantastic pressure, lets break his primary pressure moves down;

How to block!

2A

-Really fast

-Guarantees a block string

-Great for tick grabs (If he's mashing on 2A and he stops/whiffs a 5A over your head, get ready to tech)

Summary; Very solid, respect it. After it hits you, you're sure to be in block until he tries some kind of mixup, so be on your toes. If he stops 2A'ing, you might be able to mash out, but don't rely on it. It gatlings to the Jesus Kick among others, so really, you're usually going to be forced to block. Barrier will push him back significantly, so you may force him to try to dash in after a couple, which is a great opening for your own 5A

5A

-Really fast

-Whiffs on crouch (!!)

-Another tick grab tool

-Actually quite solid AA, so be careful; on CH (Maybe even on non CH, will confirm later), gatlings to 5D, so it is a high threat AA

Summary; Solid. Often used in tick grabs if you're in low block, as people see the 5A whiff and think "Oh, mash out time" but then immediately get grabbed. The recovery time is insanely low, so be careful. If you read the 5A (lol reading 5A) you can 2C him for free.

6A

-Fastish

-AUB (!!)

-Gatlings to 5D on hit and block

Summary; Respect it. If he hits you with a 6A, keep blocking. A TK Gauntlet hades is popular after 6A ground block string, so watch for the overhead. If you're approaching in the air, this will beat out anything you can do but Dnails, so if you're approaching Ragna from the air and he's on the ground, make him afraid of your approach with Dnails after your air dash. Let him know 6A isn't free against the hero of justice.

5B

-Legendary

-Really fast, really long range

-If he connects this, you're getting combo'd or blockstrung, just accept it

Summary; Try to space yourself right to avoid this, so that either you're too far for it to be effective, or close enough to 5A interrupt. Not really much to say here overall. If it hits you, stay patient, block low, watch for the overheads.

2B

-Free low

-Gatlings most popularly to 3C, 6B, or 5C

Summary; if gatling'd to 3C or 5C, you're safe just blocking low. If gatling'd to 6B, you can mash 5A if you're early enough (esp with IB), or get a 5D guard point out at the very least. Since 6B gatlings to 5C, either 5D or 2D with A teleport should catch Ragna on counterhit 9/10 times, unless you've done it before.

6B

-Mediocre overhead

-Not really distinct, so make sure you're alert

Summary; pretty slow, mash out or Guard Point usually, but Guard Point might be being baited, so be careful. If you see it coming with enough time, you can Daifunka it for massive damage, but I would make sure you're really comfortable with it first.

5C

-Long range

-Gatlings to a couple important things

Summary; 5C means you're at the beginning of the end. He can still use either a low (3C/6C/2D) or a high (TK Gauntlet), so keep blocking low/watching high. If he throws the TK Gauntlet, you're in the clear if you react (If no follow up, 5A, if follow up, 5B), unless he has meter (Which starts it all over again). If he does anything else, keep blocking, stay patient.

2C

-Really low range

-Fatal counters

Summary; Just block it, nothing special. This is a good reason not to try to get fancy and IB interrupt after his 5C, cause this'll beat you clean more often than not and fatal counter you for your efforts.

3C

-Low

-Gatlings to 5D, don't think you're in the clear

Summary; That's right, keep blocking. Really watch for TK Gauntlet Hades, but don't block high until you see it, because there's still 2D.

6C

-First hit low

-Both hit's jump cancellable

Summary; When 6C hits you, on block or not, rule of thumb is block high. Often a Ragna will throw the 6C, and in desperation for mixup cancel if into TK Gauntlet hades, with no confirmation. Be aware of that, and capitalize on your knowledge. Careful though, if you're playing a top notch Ragna he may Rapid after the first hit of 6C and low/grab mix you. Overall, 6C is the end of his mix unless he has meter. If he just jump cancels it and tries for an aerial, 5A anti air or jump aerial/airgrab him.

2D

-Breaks a primer

-Mildly unsafe on block

-Long range low

Summary; Looks very distinct, get a feel for what it looks like. It's a free punish if he doesn't have meter. Try not to let it counter hit you, the hit stun is so long you'd have to break your stick to not combo off of it.

5D

-Hits twice

-Both hits can cancel into moves, stay focused!

Summary; Just don't doze off on the first hit, stay blocking low and looking for the TK Gauntlet hades, as always. If he goes to the second hit, you can quite easily IB it, and assuming quick fingers it should be a free daifunka every time.. but the timing on that would be absurd. I'll let you know if I figure out anything that makes 5D more unsafe than I think, I'm gonna try some stuff. As of now, just keep blocking, really. Lol.

6D

-If this hits your block, his pressure just reset

-Gatlings into jD for a free, but easy to see coming overhead

-Watch out, he may deliberately whiff jD and low (!!)

-AUB (!!)

Summary; One of Ragna's more prevalent resetters, if Ragna hits any generic hit he can

> Hells Fang (1st) RC > d6D > jD > ???

To reset his pressure. Just something to know about. Also, it's air unblockable, so a tricky Ragna may try to reset you with it if you tech up into the corner; even if you do barrier block it, you're in Ragna pressure, so try not to let that happen in the first place.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DO AGAINST RAGNA PRESSURE

If you use Instant Blocks, this matchup goes from quite hard to much, much more managable. IB 5B works wonders to diffuse his mixup, as if he delays even a moment too long, or throws an overhead, or just a move that starts up too slow, you'll interrupt him and immediately start your combo/pressure.

Other than that, be moral with your blocking, don't be afraid to guard point an overhead if you see it in time, and don't forget to teleport it as soon as he starts another attack if it was 6B you GP'd.

[huey253]

2C is Ragna's most dangerous move. its Safe on block (EVEN IB), ridiculously fast FATAL COUNTERS into 5.7k dmg meterless depending on how well your opponent knows how to play ragna, (cough not hard) i would burst 2C fatal ASAP.

[Dacidbro]

Yep. I'll add a little emphasis on 2C being dangerous later.

[Dacidbro]

Bump for "The Ragna Revelation"

[huey253]

Ragna's ground normals are a little bit slower but will beat out bang's normals. Baiting Ragna's 6A with a late air dash into j4B seems to help alot in this match-up.

Also, respect the DP but don't fear it, it prorates hard and he isn't getting more than 3k off it without heat.

....

EDIT: Bang is in the advantage in this match-up, it just doesn't feel like it most of the time.

[Reioumu]

Yeah the 2C comment was really bad up there. 2C is one of Ragna's best moves and a frame trap.

Comments I have for this match is that 5B is amazing in this matchup. It beats out j.C and 5C pokes(wtf!?) I've traded with his 5B a few times, but it really isn't worth it since his damage output > your damage output. 5B is a godsend.

Also, watch out for j.B, it's Ragna's good crossup option.

Also, dead spike blockstrings are pretty damn good too. Thank god Bang has tons of guard primers.

[Dacidbro]

The frame data for 2C is misleading; it starts and ends quickly, so if used alone, gives +1 on block. However, in the grand scheme of gatlings, it keeps you stunned less long than his other moves like 5C or 5D, and is limited in what it can gatling to, and limited to slow gatlings at that. That's why if you IB his 2C, Your 5B is almost free. I've done it a LOT, it works far more than it fails. Worst case is usually a trade, which is out of pressure.

Also, Dead spike can't really be considered a block string. 5B is your answer for it, and it works quite reliably. :]

[huey253]

lol ragna is the one character you don't want to trade with, especially with 5B.

he can usually get a full combo off 5B trade, and Rei is right, 2C is dangerous, all ragna has to do is react to you pressing a button and then Inferno divider, there is other stuff he can do but its not coming to me right now.

[Dacidbro]

"all ragna has to do is react to you pressing a button and then Inferno divider, there is other stuff he can do but its not coming to me right now."

You make this sound easy, but I don't think I've even seen Kaqn do that.

Come on, how often is Ragna trying to react to something that normally does not exist, barring a successful IB and correct immediately reflex, which would also require him to react to a 1/12 or so of a second move DURING HIS BLOCKSTRING

The odds are HEAVILY in your favor here, my friend.

To give you an idea of how well it works, I've never been punished for IB 5Bing his 2C. Never. Now, I'm not playing Veteru, but I was playing Pulsr, and his Ragna/Reflexes are top notch.

[huey253]

yeah maybe i'm just putting my standards a little high... but ragna doesn't even have to react to it being IB'd, he can just input it and rapid instantly, if you jump you eat inferno divider(air unblockable), if you backdash you'll get hit, if you drive, he is safe after rapid. hey we could argue about him even having heat or not but ragna ALWAYS has heat, his combos grant him 50+ heat and still do 4k

[Dacidbro]

Huey, you're still saying he's going to DP during his blockstring. If you honestly get him that scared, it's a good thing.

[Reioumu]

No Dacidbro, what +1 means on block is after Ragna is out of his recovery frames from the attack, you're still in blockstun for 1 more frame, giving him advantage to start whatever. If Ragna times it correctly, he should get an attack in before your 5B. Of course instant blocking does reduce the blockstun, but 2C still isn't free. Hell, Ragna can probably punish Bang IBing 2C and mashing 5B. Actually, I'm pretty sure dead spike does the job there if it's spaced correctly.

[Dacidbro]

No Dacidbro, what +1 means on block is after Ragna is out of his recovery frames from the attack, you're still in blockstun for 1 more frame, giving him advantage to start whatever. If Ragna times it correctly, he should get an attack in before your 5B. Of course instant blocking does reduce the blockstun, but 2C still isn't free. Hell, Ragna can probably punish Bang IBing 2C and mashing 5B. Actually, I'm pretty sure dead spike does the job there if it's spaced correctly.

I know, Rei, but if you further calculate out the math and what it really means, it's deceptive.

If you use 2C alone, you are +1 if you gatling into nothing else, -4 if your opponent instant blocks and you gatling into nothing else. That means if he uses it alone, with no gatlings, if you instant block 5B it's literally free unless he dragon punches, because even his 5A is going to be 5 frames, I believe, meaning he needs 9 frames (-4 on block 5 frame jab), and since you're starting 4 ahead of him, you have enough time to throw out even an 8 frame jab(+4 on your IB'ing his 2C, to 8 frame jab = 4 frames, faster than his 5A), not to mention 5B walks all over Ragna's 5A anyway.

But THEN, you realize, in the grand scheme of things, Ragna is probably going to gatling things from his 2C, often, just like most moves. So why are we still safe, here? Well, Ragna's options after 2C are just about all slower than 12ish frames, which is what I'm guesstimating Ragna's 2C, when gatling'd immediately to another move, leaves you desiring (something like 9 frames of blockstun, but 4ish frames of blockstun with IB, 8 frames 5B). Most importantly, IB 5B on 2C beats Gauntlet hades clean, every time I've used it, and that's usually the first thing on a Ragna's mind, especially with meter. That makes this much safer than a guard point, as Ragna gets no chance to rapid > punish; you go THROUGH his move instead of trying to block-stop it.

I know this is accurate, I've been using it and it works, well. Just don't get greedy, if you try to IB 5B his 5C, you often get fatal countered on 2C, and a couple other moves have similar problems. His 2C is your safest interruption moment.

Some time later, I'll research Ragna's frame data and more accurately show the math.

[faultydefense]

its true, IB raggy's 2C and he has to do something with invuln to stop bang from poking

then again, this applies to a ridiculous # of situations in BB...IB is too good

[Dacidbro]

its true, IB raggy's 2C and he has to do something with invuln to stop bang from poking

then again, this applies to a ridiculous # of situations in BB...IB is too good

yup

If you don't utilize instant blocking, you're missing out on S tier. Literally. Bang is only able to compete/be better than Litch and Ragna, respectively, without a dragon punch, because of instant blocking.

So don't be lazy!

Oh, wow, better news than I thought. Of his normals, the only ones under 12 frames are his 5A (5), 2A (7), 5B (8), 2B (9), and he can't gatling to them from anything C or beyond. Of his specials, there's only 3 or 4 that start up in under 12.. unfortunately, I can't read Japanese, but they don't seem to be the ones that would be used in blockstring pressure from the numbers... .-.

Oh, of course, 2 of them are C and D Dragon Punch.

---

Looking at more of his frame data, if you understood that a Ragna liked to use the same blockstring a lot, and always the same A or B move into a C or higher, you could probably IB interrupt it with 5A, since all of his A's and B's (Notable exception being 5B, which is level 3, what the fuck) are only level 0-1 blockstun. Meaning if you IB a level 0 move, you're probably only stuck with the literal moment his hand touches you (but IBing them are really hard, since those are only his jabs), and if you IB a level 1 move, you have extremely little time stunned. Probably the only thing I'll potentially get from this is if you IB Ragna's 2B, there's a chance you can stuff literally any followup with 5A, but his 3C might screw it up. Just have to test it. Most likely, what is to be gained from this, is that certain moves allow an easy IB backdash.

[PhoenonX]

It might be a good idea to note that Skillna's 3C is J/C-able even on Block.

[TheDarkWall]

Online ragna makes me rage. Allot of the reaction stuff goes out the window and I'm not that good on IBing on a stick yet. Not to mention it feels like you can't really safely ib an average block string. At least I've been going in to training mode. Off of 5C if he GH's theres no real gap. If he doesn't delay his 214D follow up attacks, they have no gap, and the RCing makes it safe regardless. Its kinda aggravating, hes seriously the most annoying character in the game to me.

[huey253]

well, you could just block and allow ragna to kill himself.

if they even use the followup, they are forced to rc because of how unsafe it is.

alot of ragna's have a bad habit of airdashing in after rc, so stick out 5A.

smarter ragna players will actually rc falling jC because its safe more or less.

soo just block more i guess? or just always be on offense? idk

[TheDarkWall]

Ya, another issues I have with ragna. Its very hard to oki him at all since at any point he can randomly ID, really turns it into a guessing game in his favor since if I guess he'll ID and he doesn't , he gets free pressure. Really wish I could find a way to work past this.

This said, I guess I should get around to learning FRKZ, its changed allot this game so I never got to relearning it.

[huey253]

you really shouldn't fear inferno divider, he gets like 2.5k+ meter and no oki.

after you sucessfully bait it a couple times, most of the time ragna becomes less trigger happy with ID

[zeth07]

Ya, another issues I have with ragna. Its very hard to oki him at all since at any point he can randomly ID, really turns it into a guessing game in his favor since if I guess he'll ID and he doesn't , he gets free pressure. Really wish I could find a way to work past this.

This said, I guess I should get around to learning FRKZ, its changed allot this game so I never got to relearning it.

You could do a bit of a work around by not doing True Oki combos and going for bigger damage ones that let him Air Tech. So you add on that extra damage to his already low hp total, and try to out play him in footsies/"zoning"/spacing once you both are "neutral" again. I'm not really sure who would have the advantage in a neutral situation, Ragna has the longer range but Bang has nails to use most of the time.

It's not exactly a better situation, and even if you're sacrificing oki which is Bang's whole gameplan, if you think you can outplay the Ragna in terms of the overall match then at least it is a safe method depending on how you look at it.

The only other thing to try would be purposely whiffing stuff after oki but before he techs to give the illusion that you're still gonna apply pressure but actually be trying to bait out a DP. Of course you would still be put under pressure if he decides not to and you don't react before him during that split second.

That whole situation is a pain but it's like that for just about every match-up in some form or another. I wish there was an absolute solution, but then there wouldn't be much to the mind games.

[DaiAndOh]

Inferno Divider RC leads to some big damage though. If he has meter, you have to respect it.

I'm really not here to help for online, but learn to IB 5b as stated earlier. The word is that he has not true blockstring if you do so.

[Seifuuku]

ib 2b/2c is a lot more important, but yes ib is still very important in this match up i think

[DaiAndOh]

ib 2b/2c is a lot more important, but yes ib is still very important in this match up i think

I see 5b thrown out randomly a lot more than those other 2 though.

[huey253]

lol wut, ibing 2B? i'm pretty sure there isn't a big enough gap between 2B and whatever to try an punish it.

ibing 2C doesn't grant you too much either.