[CS1] Bang vs Ragna

[ShoMeYaMoves]

lol wut, ibing 2B? i'm pretty sure there isn't a big enough gap between 2B and whatever to try an punish it.

ibing 2C doesn't grant you too much either.

You should try it sometime. IBing 2B is -10 on block for Ragna iirc. The two things to really look for a punish with in a Ragna blockstring are IBing 2B or 5C.

[huey253]

You should try it sometime. IBing 2B is -10 on block for Ragna iirc. The two things to really look for a punish with in a Ragna blockstring are IBing 2B or 5C.

sorry, i don't have bb anymore so i couldn't test it

iB 5A can interrupt 2B 2C and 2B 3C right?

[Dacidbro]

For SHAME showme. You of all players should know not to read Static Difference on a gatlingable move.. 2B gatlings straight into all kinds of quick moves, one of which is a fatal counter.

But, instant block 2B daifunka will often pay off because of it, since it's very negative if non-gatling'd, and gatlings into very committed moves.

EDIT Huey, those would both beat IB 5A easy on that

[ShoMeYaMoves]

For SHAME showme. You of all players should know not to read Static Difference on a gatlingable move.. 2B gatlings straight into all kinds of quick moves, one of which is a fatal counter.

But, instant block 2B daifunka will often pay off because of it, since it's very negative if non-gatling'd, and gatlings into very committed moves.

EDIT Huey, those would both beat IB 5A easy on that

I practically main Tager now. Tager can 720 off IB 2B or 5C for free. XD

You're right about the gatling, my bad. I hold to what I said regardless though (and agree with IB daifunka if you IB) since Ragna will 99% of the time gatling into 2C or 3C.

[Dacidbro]

Yeah, but if he gatlings to 2C, 3C, you're dead. IB 5A might beat a 5C gatling, but it's so high risk.

[Beautiful Death]

even if Ragna doesn't get much damage off of his shoryuken you're still taking damage and giving the Dude 50 meter. So yeah. Ragna is probably one of the few characters in Blaz in which you should

be judicious with your wake up stuff.

Anyway. To clear up some stuff in the first post.

1. Yes, 5A only combos into into 5DD on counter. But only if the foe dude is above you. So, pretty much in AA position. Yeah. Something about the hitbox position.

2. Both hits of 6C are NOT jump cancellable on hit or block. Only 6C(2). All Dudena can do after 6C on block is dash cancel both hits, jump out of the second, and gatling either hit into 6D. So after the second hit, it's still posibbly Gauntlet Hades time, so WATCH OUT.

3. You can't jump cancel 5D, so well, there's not going to be a TK Gauntlet Hades coming afterwards. Just the ground one. Same thing I guess for the most part lolz.

4. If the Dude gets you at point blank with 6DD on block, don't bother trying to do anything but block if you know he's going to jab. 6DD>5A is seamless even with instant block. Must be useful to know you're stuck.

5. Maybe this is obvious, but I feel it's important enough to warrant a mention. Many character's overheads leave them with only a special cancel. Not Ragna. He can still gatling to plenty of other normals in addition to specials. So it's not just say "this guys overhead is -8, block, boom. Punish." Ragna can still do just about everything off of a blocked 6A. Except a direct jump. Which is too bad, really.

Everything else looks about right. I think.

[ShoMeYaMoves]

Yeah, but if he gatlings to 2C, 3C, you're dead. IB 5A might beat a 5C gatling, but it's so high risk.

I'm actually interested in this now, give a few days and I'll run up a list of IB punishes on Ragna. It's something I should know more about but don't.

[Seifuuku]

2b on IB is a free punish with 5a regardless of what he gatlings to unless he special cancels to anything except gh in an attempt to frame trap.. (fun fact - tager gets a free throw if he IB ragna's 2b unless they frame trap)

IB 2c to 6c/6d is a free punish, however 2c->3c does not have a 5 frame gap and you will get CH if you try that.. the point to IB 2c is so that you can jump out of pressure - 2c to 6c or 6d is a jump out trap.

as for ib->daifunka..

2a->anything

5a->anything, can jump cancel

6d->j.d. they can jump cancel

3c->anything, they can jump cancel

6a->anything, they can jump cancel

5c->anything

2b->anything

5b->5c, 3c or 6a, 100% guaranteed punish. 5b->2b is air tight.

6c (1)->anything, True 100% guaranteed punish

5d (1)->5d (2) or 214a/214b/214d, 100% guaranteed punish

5d (2)->214a/214b/214d, 100% guaranteed punish

taken from my hazama ib thread..

[TheDarkWall]

All good stuff to know , thanks guys. I'm trying to practice the block low react high stuff, but it is really hard online. Also apparently I'm told my LCD olevia tv is laggy, which is annoying.

[Dacidbro]

2b on IB is a free punish with 5a regardless of what he gatlings to unless he special cancels to anything except gh in an attempt to frame trap.. (fun fact - tager gets a free throw if he IB ragna's 2b unless they frame trap)

IB 2c to 6c/6d is a free punish, however 2c->3c does not have a 5 frame gap and you will get CH if you try that.. the point to IB 2c is so that you can jump out of pressure - 2c to 6c or 6d is a jump out trap.

as for ib->daifunka..

2a->anything

5a->anything, can jump cancel

6d->j.d. they can jump cancel

3c->anything, they can jump cancel

6a->anything, they can jump cancel

5c->anything

2b->anything

5b->5c, 3c or 6a, 100% guaranteed punish. 5b->2b is air tight.

6c (1)->anything, True 100% guaranteed punish

5d (1)->5d (2) or 214a/214b/214d, 100% guaranteed punish

5d (2)->214a/214b/214d, 100% guaranteed punish

taken from my hazama ib thread..

This is misleading, if Ragna is throwing just jabs you can't daifunka him, so 2A > anything is not a good point to Daifunka without a strong read, and 5A > anything isn't either. 6D jD is a point where Ragna resets his pressure, so daifunka is generally a bad choice, as Ragna often jabs. 3C is a good point to do it, I believe, 2B is too, 5B is too, 5C is too.

Also the cool part about 5D is if he doesn't gatling into 214A, 214B, 214D, if he doesn't gatling at all Daifunka hits too. But he can DP to clash.

[FlyingVe]

Ragna can also DC the 5D, which only leaves him at -4. Even on IB, that wouldn't be Diafunka punishable. Then again, 5A works better in that situation anyhow, and you can always buffer Daifunka and do it on reaction to the other stuff.

[TheDarkWall]

I don't think 3C is a good point to daifunka dacid, everybody LOVES jcing that, so they'll almost certainly dodge.

[Seifuuku]

yes it was just a list of possible gaps, basically copy and pasted from my hazama thread.. daifunka seems to have a long start up so it isn't as practical as a ib->super reversal

iirc 3c to TK GH or 3c to 2d will always get beaten by daifunka however

[Justice7541]

I need some advice on this matchup. Ragna is like the only character that consistently blows me up (even Litchi and Valk are free compared to Ragna unless LK is at the wheel). Basically these are my observations:

1) Gauntlet overhead destroys me. Not much that can be done about this but it would be nice if there was something I could do to stuff/punish it instead of just letting Ragna RC it into whatever he wants for more endless pressure.

2) The Gauntlet overhead aside (which is really what really destroys me the most), I've found that Ragna only has one hole in his pressure string without IB and that's anything > 6B. Otherwise his blockstring pretty much goes on forever so long as he has meter and he gets it really fast even on block, which means you're potentially in for 2-3 resets worth of him doing whatever he wants to do (so long as he doesn't do 2B 6B), and if you screw up the blocking on anything he can take it into 4k damage, corner, 50% meter, etc. If he sneaks a Dead Spike in you're in for even more punishment. Daifunka is a really crappy reversal all around and Ashura is a godawful super in general. Of course it's not that hard to IB the back of his blockstring but all the exploitable gaps appear to be near the beginning (primarily 2B) and that makes it a lot more difficult to do consistently without risking huge damage.

3) Bang has no AA so Ragna can basically jump in on you for free since his j.C will beat everything Bang has unless he does it really deep into a 5A for some reason. I suppose you could airthrow (I've never tried) but whether or not that works I imagine it'd be a pretty easy way to get yourself set up for 4k damage, etc. That not only gives him another really annoying option for resetting his blocsktring, but it also makes him really annoying to approach. Nailgliding to approach helps a lot for when he's grounded but of course that does nothing about his j.C. Hell 90% of the time when the Ragna's at neutral he just jumps around mashing j.C and there's nothing I can do about it.

4) Last but not least, Ragna is impossible to pressure. Bang can't stagger his pressure against Ragna like he does against a lot of characters (i.e. 5A 2A, 5A 2A 5B, etc.) since Ragna can basically dial in a DP in response to any apparent gap and at the very least it'll be blocked (which lets him RC the DP and that makes it his pressure game again). If you get hit by the DP you're seriously screwed, coupled with Berial Edge it's an absurdly good DP and it's probably the only reversal other than Houtenjin I'd seriously consider bursting if it hit me at full health. That also means that you can't meaty with anything other than D nail, ID punishes anything else clean and again, Inferno RC means baiting it is a no-go if he has meter. You can try to make him whiff it but Bang doesn't have any meaties outside of DP range so if he sees you that far out there's no reason for him to ever try it. I could always just take combos into raw damage with no oki but that really puts me on the losing end of the pressure game.

I was talking about this in the PSN thread but a lot of Bang's other powerful tools don't do much against Ragna, i.e. bumper and FRKZ are both incredibly unsafe thanks to his 6A/DP/5D/j.C and D nail reset gets raped six ways to Sunday. I'm trying to figure out what Bang really has going against Ragna other than command throw, 5A, and nails.

[Dacidbro]

I skimmed very, very lightly, so I apologize if this isn't entirely relevant;

1. Gauntlet hades with meter is his strongest, and kind of only, tool. Block it and let him burn the meter, if you have your own meter block it and post rapid, next possible point counter assault.

2. Without IB, you will never beat Ragna. Don't even consider it. If you really, really suck at IB, you can try using Barrier sporadically, but honestly the only real advice I can give you is get better at IB. Still, use barrier as well. It will help.

3. Bang's AA's are useful, but only to beat out certain spacings. Trying to beat his full spaced jC is suicide (If you see it coming late, jump IB punch him afterwards), trying to beat jB is generally suicide (Same deal for this one, or jump back to avoid it)

4. You can easily stagger against Ragna. If his DP is hitting you every time, you're messing up, bad. You need to add in spots that OS beat his DP, like a 2A meatied on his wakeup with proper spacing. You should never burst Ragna's DP, it's a very low damage starter unless CH AA. I am going to guess that your mix up is too stale, and you aren't using enough move variety, that's why he can easily DP you. Mix it up bro, I guess. Bang has a decent advantage in this matchup.

[Justice7541]

I skimmed very, very lightly, so I apologize if this isn't entirely relevant;

1. Gauntlet hades with meter is his strongest, and kind of only, tool. Block it and let him burn the meter, if you have your own meter block it and post rapid, next possible point counter assault.

2. Without IB, you will never beat Ragna. Don't even consider it. If you really, really suck at IB, you can try using Barrier sporadically, but honestly the only real advice I can give you is get better at IB. Still, use barrier as well. It will help.

3. Bang's AA's are useful, but only to beat out certain spacings. Trying to beat his full spaced jC is suicide (If you see it coming late, jump IB punch him afterwards), trying to beat jB is generally suicide (Same deal for this one, or jump back to avoid it)

4. You can easily stagger against Ragna. If his DP is hitting you every time, you're messing up, bad. You need to add in spots that OS beat his DP, like a 2A meatied on his wakeup with proper spacing. You should never burst Ragna's DP, it's a very low damage starter unless CH AA. I am going to guess that your mix up is too stale, and you aren't using enough move variety, that's why he can easily DP you. Mix it up bro, I guess. Bang has a decent advantage in this matchup.

Nah, it does help a bit. Just a couple more things in response to what you posted:

2) Which moves are exploitable on IB? I know IBing 2B pretty much gets you out for free unless he DPs and 5D is free if he dash cancels (which he won't) but are there any other points where I can 5A/5B or otherwise force him to commit to Gauntlet/ID?

4) Isn't 2A 9-frame recovery? ID is 7 frames so if I try to meaty with it I'll just get punished. Although I'd say Ragna's DP is plenty worth bursting, it gives him a free RC, takes like 2.5k, and puts you in corner and ready to take it up the ass. I guess it's not as bad as eating his FC 2C but it still sucks.

EDIT: Oh yeah, as for the staggering, a lot of the Ragnas I play just go OH LOL A PAUSE and mash out a DP and just RC if it's blocked. Even that is pretty shitty for me since he can ID RC j.C > pressure string. I wouldn't stagger against Hazama either and ID is basically the same thing except less damage, safer, and meterless on hit.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Justice7541

[Dacidbro]

Uh, basically, against Ragna, you need reads to 'exploit' most things. If you think he's going to throw Gauntlet, if you IB'ed the last move, you CAN interrupt him with 5B. If you guess wrong you eat shit. High risk, high reward. If you've barriered a bit, IB 5B is actually rather low risk (given perfect spacing), as you should beat either 2D or gauntlet, his primary mix, at full range. However, you can't hit confirm it either.

Basically, try to get a feel for your specific opponent's patterns.

2A's hitbox is actually quite awkward.. Given correct spacing, you will low profile ID even after meatying on his wakeup. Takes practice. Then you OS 5B followup since 2A (Whiff) 5B is nothing, 2A (block/hit) 5B is mix or followup.

[huey253]

man, you don't even need ib, just use BARRIER DEFENSE

bang shouldn't really be able to anti air ragna unless

A. a really bad jump in

B. ragna instant air dashes in

also 5B is your friend.... always