[CS1] Tsubaki vs Tager

[Airk]

720 is a true reversal move, it needs only one frame to activate and then it's invulnerable until just after its first active frame.

Eh? Tager Frame Data lists the 720 as 5+0 - that's to say, it takes 5 frames to start up, then super flashes, THEN it's instant and unescapable...but that's that same as Tsubaki's 236236D. The only difference I'm seeing from the data is that A) Tager has 1 less frame of invincibility (whatever) and can hold for more active (but vulnerable) frames.

Well, that and it's a throw (With the attendant 100% guaranteed damage) and isn't dependent some special magic gauge to actually do damage. (Fun fact: Tsubaki's 236236D at full charge does 50 more damage than Tager's 720. :P Assuming you don't combo into it.)

[Rhiya]

Thing is, 236236D's range is godawful.

[BatousaiJ]

Eh? Tager Frame Data lists the 720 as 5+0 - that's to say, it takes 5 frames to start up, then super flashes, THEN it's instant and unescapable...but that's that same as Tsubaki's 236236D. The only difference I'm seeing from the data is that A) Tager has 1 less frame of invincibility (whatever) and can hold for more active (but vulnerable) frames.

Well, that and it's a throw (With the attendant 100% guaranteed damage) and isn't dependent some special magic gauge to actually do damage. (Fun fact: Tsubaki's 236236D at full charge does 50 more damage than Tager's 720. :P Assuming you don't combo into it.)

In 1000(yes, exactly) matches using Tsubaki, I don't think I've ever landed a naked 236236D with 5 charges.

There's probably a reason for that.

Like it's been mentioned before though, you have to play super safely against a Tager to have a chance baiting some move and counting on their sad invul frames the DD has is probably not a good idea. Better off probably 623A and RC if it's blocked and LoL if you get guard pointed by one of his anti-projectile moves.

[Airk]

Thing is, 236236D's range is godawful.

True, but as a reversal, that's somewhat less relevant.

Not saying this is useful vs Tager, mind you, this just happens to be the thread that spurred the thought.

[Heroic_Legacy]

As a reversal 236236D is pretty crummy. Any smart Tager is going to be sledging you on wakeup to make sure of that.

[Manta]

Eh? Tager Frame Data lists the 720 as 5+0 - that's to say, it takes 5 frames to start up, then super flashes, THEN it's instant and unescapable...but that's that same as Tsubaki's 236236D. The only difference I'm seeing from the data is that A) Tager has 1 less frame of invincibility (whatever) and can hold for more active (but vulnerable) frames.

Well, that and it's a throw (With the attendant 100% guaranteed damage) and isn't dependent some special magic gauge to actually do damage. (Fun fact: Tsubaki's 236236D at full charge does 50 more damage than Tager's 720. :P Assuming you don't combo into it.)

I meant to say that it's invulnerable from frame 1 until the first frame of extreme pain. Also, I think tha t236236D comb scales with its own hits, so you won't get more damage than a 720 even if you do have full charge.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Manta

[Airk]

I meant to say that it's invulnerable from frame 1 until the first frame of extreme pain.

Only the first POTENTIAL frame of extreme pain. It's not invincible until it hits, just until it starts up - 720 has several active frames. And my point is that that's just how the invincibility on 236236D works. It just has other things that bring it down.

Also, I think tha t236236D comb scales with its own hits, so you won't get more damage than a 720 even if you do have full charge.

Okay, that's terrible. -_- I didn't even think of that.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Airk

[STenSatsu]

Full charge is like 3300 or so I think.

[Manta]

So basically less damage than Tager does with 360B. You're paying 50 heat and 5 charges to get a few invulnerable frames on a blockable move to do less damage than tager can shit out at any point. The only saving Grace being that you can hitconfirm something into it.

At close range I really think that there isn't anything Tsubaki can do that Tager can't do better, apart from having a proper reversal, but then Tager has sledge so meh. I find that I can actually Zone Tsubaki away from me with pokes and shit, feels weird.

[STenSatsu]

You don't need any charges to use the super. It's basically when you need a true reversal or if you have like 4+ charge install combo with 100 meter.

[Manta]

I know that, but if you have no charges then you get precisely sod all damage from it. I was trying to compare like damage with tager and that does require 5 charges to just come close.

[Airk]

The actual damage numbers are really depressing. I wonder if they REALIZE that it combo scales with itself to such terrible numbers? -_-

[Manta]

Of course they do. 236236D is designed as a combo ender. No followups, not even a bluebeat. Therefore the only reason the devs would've put a P2 value in for the hits is if it scaled the hits themselves. I find it particularly lolworthy that you need 2 charges just to match the damage of the C version. With less than that you actually do get less damage (but with 4 frames less startup and reversal invulnerability however, so it's good for that). 236236D does have the range to hit Tager after a Gadget finger, but it's still a projectile. Oh hum.

[Airk]

That doesn't necessarily mean anything; The only thing a "combo ender" needs is minimum damage, which does scale with charges.

The point is though, that it's a terrible use of charges for the damage unless you're using it to end a Mugen combo (yay, 100 heat.)

[FoxyAreku]

I always end up with 5 charges in this matchup. Of course that's vs. online tagers. >_>

[Kiba]

I'm pretty much gonna go over this matchup again. After playing a great Tager player in a tournament I just wanted to spread the word.

1. Try and 'zone' with repetitious pokes with 5B, keeping him out of reach. Please do not continue the blockstring. Don't do it. Why? Free 360/720 for him, and we don't want that now do we? Use 5B, then air back dash for instance.

2.If he uses sledge, try and measure the distance and punish accordingly with 5B bnb combo. If he hits you on sledge, please don't DP straight away, or more like, don't use it at all. It's usually better to back dash/air back dash w/e. If you have 623D though, it's worth a try, but it's not one of the first things that should come to your mind. If you continually try to poke him out with 5b, you shouldn't have this sledge problem anyway.

3.At the beginning of the match, dash back/air dash back, and charge, and wait and see what he does. If he charges himself, that's usually better for you in the long run. If he tries to move forward for the kill, keep trying to outspace him.

4.If he jumps in on you, please, please, please do not go air game with him. He WILL beat you. 2C is your best bet. However the Tager will eventually (or more like should be) learning to barrier block in the air.In the case of that and your 2c gets Tager on block, if you don't follow your attack through or RC Tager can use 5a/360/720 to punish you. If you have charge you could do 2C-623D-J236/J214 to make some distance. Tager may also jump and may use J2C, and your 2C will miss unless it's timed. In that case run under him and continue charging if you feel he's adapted to your 2c game.

5.If you have stock and somehow you manage to get Tager into the corner, space your distance correctly, and go for the unblockable. We all know how Tager is free from unblockables, and this is usually where your damage kicks in. Harder to hit mid screen though, and if he has spark bolt, I wouldn't advise using the unblockable. I also wouldn't advise using it if Tager has meter. It's a gamble and depends just how alert the Tager is.

6.If he has Spark Bolt ready, bait out with JD/2D. Not 5D. Horrible recovery.

7.If Tager Iron Fists you away, please, please, PLEASE do not air tech. Most Tagers go for the AC reset and if you tech YOU WILL get dragged back in for more punishment.

8. Please don't use blockstrings on Tager. Don't do it. Said it before, I will say it again. Tsubaki is very hard to hit confirm with and I wouldn't advise in doing it to try to get some damage. Normally it would be minimal and it may not be worth it.

9.If you are going for the air combo, unless you are ending with 214D, do JC>J236A>J214C. This way, you can back/forward air dash, but you'd want to air back dash. You want to get away from Tager and get more stock.

10. If you are using any other normal except for 5B on block, you are doing something very very wrong.

11. If he gets you in a combo usually don't attempt to burst straight away. You'd want to save the burst if you feel he will use his meter to rack up more damage, or a FC combo for instance (which I may add he should not be getting!!)

12. If you use 236D ON BLOCK please get away immediately. 360/720 will beat anything you do. Again I wouldnt advise using this alot. You'll fall into Tager's mixup game again.

Been said alot of times, but just wanted to summarise and kinda remind fellow Tsubaki players of the matchup, hopefully to make it 1% easier, lol.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Kiba

[Wolf of Sorrow]

After that he gadget finger me, can my J 214D can beat his 360 grab?if not,any other stuff(except jump C .T,T)?

[Relunx]

What should I do after Tager pulls me from OTG ground state with Gadget Finger into neutral state and HE uses Throw Counter or Super to deals massive dmg/kill me?

Relunx

[A.X.I.S.]

If you are getting throw countered then that means your trying to poke him right after gadget.

Gadget is +3 IIRC so you can't poke him out of grabs.

His supers shouldn't do any damage unless your mashing too, so stop trying to poke him out of gadget if you get caught, its not always a good idea.

Edited December 25, 2010 by A.X.I.S.

[Relunx]

Yesterday I fought against a 45+ Tager player and I want to share my experience that would rise your chance against Tager:

- CH 5b,6cc,jbc,jcc,236a,214c (2600dmg) works wonders instead of normal 1960dmg combo

- rare cases magnetism helps to land a CH 5b

- time 236d as suprisingly as you could (I usually follow it up with 22d,6c,jbc,jcc,236a,214c for a 3.3k combo)

- jD to dodge/bait his full screen projectile (I'm not sure but maybe 3c goes under it)

- wakeup 22d(lv2) oki works wonders too (mugen combo follow up posibilities)

- sometimes jB can beat his 720 (I managed to counter him with 4x times, rare cases 236236d will counter it too, I only countered him 1x time with that)

- after gadget, instead of back airdash or block you can try to throw him (needs huge cockyness)

- if Tager doesn't have meter, you can try to dash in and try to throw him and follow it up with a combo (huuuuge cockyness needed)

- blockstrings leads to world of pain

- if Tager barrier blocks your 2c, your best shot will be 623d

- for alternate match starter you can start with 3c,3cc...combo (instead of air backdash)

- note: I always had 2-3 stock, sometimes full 5

Relunx

[Ginseng]

That post made me cringe and facepalm really hard. Anyone else want to take on this? lol if I do this it might not be safe for the internets.

[STenSatsu]

That post made me cringe and facepalm really hard. Anyone else want to take on this? lol if I do this it might not be safe for the internets.

Sure lol.

-Kind of obvious

-Nothing really special here. Kind of obvious again though I wouldn't suggest trying to beat any magnet move already starting up with 5b.

-Is actually good. 236d punishes whiffs very well if you out-footsie Tager.

-Works ok but you have to be careful of the landing recovery, probably safer to just time a double jump. Wouldn't try to go under it with anything, to risky.

-22d is great against Tager fatness in general, though you'd have to have great timing I think to land it on oki.

-If you are in the air and he 720s just use j.c instead or a CH dive since you normally get in that situation by reading the 720 in the first place. I think you can input 236236d during 720 flash and beat it but you'd have to be super baller and it's hella risky.

-Don't try to throw him, he will literally never block after gadget since sledge and 6a both beat dp.

-No reason to ever get closer than 5b range against Tager, just gonna get yourself killed or magnetised (same thing).

-Correct, your blockstrings mean a world of pain for you.

-No, safest thing is 22c. 623d might be ok if you have another charge. But if he reads a raw 623d right you eat B buster or 720 so 4500-5500 instead of just an A buster at worst.

-Should prolly just IAD back or backdash at the start of every match, don't think he can punish either and I don't think 3c will beat any of his popular starters except maaaaaaaybe 5c.

-correct. Should actually figure out a good 5 charge combo off 22d raw on tager simply because it happens a decent amount.

[Relunx]

I used lots of times 236d,22d on tager, and all my tager opponents ate the 22d as counter hit.

The only way they managed to hit out me of 22d is when they had meter and used 720.

Am I super lucky or just coinsidence they can't hit/grab me out of 22d?

Relunx

[Rhiya]

236D is alright if you use it as a punish.

If you space your 22D wrong, Tager can grab you out of it on reaction -- even without meter. Make sure you do 22D at max range.

[cj_iwakura]

If I can contribute, I've had good luck with just rushing in on him and attacking from the air with 6B, then going into her BNB ground combos.

Keep the pressure on him and don't let up. Jump back if he gets a breather, then repeat.