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Posted

Here's a question I've been yearning for an answer; is Makoto bunked against Tager? I am so veri afraid to touch the dude without a 10-foot-pole.

Posted

Tsubaki vs Rachel

Rachel has advantages over her, as follows:

Pressure - Rachel can provide pressure from full screen, however bad it may be compared to other zoning characters, its still viable. She has the option of running away with this as well.

Oki/Mixup - Rachel has a much better mix-up options with frog/pumpkin, having a frog on there wake up can force them into blocking a mix-up, on the other hand Tsubaki's mix-ups aren't very strong.

Damage - both characters damage output is smiler, the difference is mostly Tsubaki requires charges or meter to do anything over 2.2k damage. Rachel also requires wind, however that recharges on its own, so you can still do pressure while its charging.

Supers - they are just better, in every way.

Tsubaki on the other hand

Unblock-able setup - which for the most part is very gimmicky and it requires 1 charge. If they are watching for it, its very easy to super jump away or just 5b Tsubaki in the face.

Better pokes then Rachel however most of them will not lead to anything more then 2k dmg or into a reset. Charge isn't worth using in a combo unless you have more then 1-2 charges or you land a solid 5b, since using a charge off a 6a or 5/2a leads to less damage since the second part of 6CC is tech-able.

Tsubaki has a better anti-air however, I've seen it get beaten to many times. Only reason its decent is because she crouches down, however since it's still fairly slow, it's beatable.

As a Tsubaki main for the past 6 months, other then unblock-able, what else is there?

(This isn't getting into disadvantages for either character, since they both have a lot, I’m just trying to say what is better between the two)

Posted

quickly throwing back to the topic of hakumen..... that dude wrecks my shit almost as bad as Ragna.

I can't throw ice swords, and since most of Jin's drive have projectile property, that black hole is an ass to deal with. if it's out my drive is essentially gone.

his pokes just flatout outclass my 5C (and his JC is bigger .l..-_-), so the entire matchup boils down to me trying to land a CH 2D (70p1 WTF.....) off of whiffed 4C's.... god forbid he jumps.

Posted

the match up is nearly even, if your even throwing out ice blades on haku-men at a place where he can swing his sword then your doing something wrong, jin's pressure is still strong despite the nerf's, haku-men still has to wait it out for jin when he starts his pressure.

I'm sure the advantage haku has over jin is slight and its just damage.

Posted

Can't say I'm familiar with this matchup, but I assume the main problem is for Jin to actually get in and begin pressure. Even then, Jin doesn't have the greatest mixup and he can't do decent damage without meter and the corner.

Hakumen on the other hand can probably do a decent job of keeping Jin out and can do big damage with just a little bit of meter.

Posted
the match up is nearly even, if your even throwing out ice blades on haku-men at a place where he can swing his sword then your doing something wrong, jin's pressure is still strong despite the nerf's, haku-men still has to wait it out for jin when he starts his pressure.

I'm sure the advantage haku has over jin is slight and its just damage.

overall that's true, since he can't swing his sword very fast to break Jin's drive, but it does null Jin's long range game. really it's more annoying than difficult, the toughest part is getting in on Haku, once you do it becomes pretty even. I would say slight advantage Haku because the damage gap is quite large, and Haku's pokes have much more range..... and his JC is much better than Jin's

EDIT: I need to stop playing and type, I just got ninja'd by 20 minutes.

Posted

while we are on the subject, lets talk tager vs tsubaki.

I don't see a reason to respect her wake up. (projectile DP)

I don't a reason her mix up is viable. (IB 360/720)

and lastly her overhead has a fucking sound cue.(seriously what kind of retarded shit is that)

is there anything she can do tager outside of hit and run?

Posted

@smooshman

What can I say, I'm awesome. Jokes aside though, I think Jin should have an easier time dealing with Hakumen's pressure than Hakumen with Jin's pressure. Hakumen's pressure seems reliant on frame traps and he doesn't have many damaging mixups. Jin on the other hand, has his variety of jump-cancellable moves and 6D. He has to contend with tk. Hotaru, IB 6D/2D, and Yukikaze though, but the latter two seem like rather risky options, long as Jin doesn't get too predictable.

EDIT: @A.X.I.S.

No. In my humble, largely ignorant opinion, that is.

Posted
while we are on the subject, lets talk tager vs tsubaki.

I don't see a reason to respect her wake up. (projectile DP)

I don't a reason her mix up is viable. (IB 360/720)

and lastly her overhead has a fucking sound cue.(seriously what kind of retarded shit is that)

is there anything she can do tager outside of hit and run?

the only thing she can do is run away, charge, and use 5B and 22D since if spaced well tager has a hard time getting away from 22D. At the same time, if spaced wrong tager can just get a free 360A on her (happened to me lots before i got that spacing down)

her mixups sucked to begin with, tager just thanks you for the free 360s.

Ive even been IB 360'd out of 5bb2bb before, so it really is a hit and run, hit and 22D game

Posted
@smooshman

What can I say, I'm awesome. Jokes aside though, I think Jin should have an easier time dealing with Hakumen's pressure than Hakumen with Jin's pressure. Hakumen's pressure seems reliant on frame traps and he doesn't have many damaging mixups. Jin on the other hand, has his variety of jump-cancellable moves and 6D. He has to contend with tk. Hotaru, IB 6D/2D, and Yukikaze though, but the latter two seem like rather risky options, long as Jin doesn't get too predictable.

true, against Hakumen Jin has 4 DP's, yukikaze, and ice arrows to handle the pressure, but Haku doesn't really need to pressure Jin, just spam 4C and JC, and there's not much Jin can do except 2D....

anyways, the only thing I find okay about Tsubaki is her pressure, but tager has 360/720...

Posted

She gets charge pretty easily against Tager at least, which means she can use 236d pretty liberally. That thing is really good for footsies against Tager. I'm pretty sure you can block full screen spark on reaction from 2d charging. If he gets you once it can get super ugly though since even D dp is projectile based I believe.

Posted
i think tager is worse than rachel and tsubaki imo.

Tager has a pretty good mix-up game and solid damage. On paper, I'd actually put him in B tier. But in practice most characters can play around his game enough that the strength of his movelist doesn't translate to reality.

Tsubaki or Rachel imo is more a question of the nature of the game rather than their individual characters. Even if Rachel is a stronger character on paper (which I would agree with), she's not strong enough to deal with mid-range types and is horrible if you get in her face. Tsubaki is at least faster so she can move in against mid-range and can deal with rushdown.

Posted
i think tager is worse than rachel and tsubaki imo.

All three of them are awful, but I think Tager's more viable for competitive play than Rachel and Tsubaki. *looks at SBO qualifier results* Tager has match ups that are more one-sided, but at least he has enough damage to save him from some situations. Tsubaki and Rachel don't have that.

As for which is worse between Tsubaki and Rachel... well... Rachel has worse match ups than Tsubaki, but overall Rachel does have stronger options (Tempest Dahlia isn't as worthless as Tsubaki Install, and BBL can at least provide somewhat decent damage if you work hard enough for it... plus Rachel actually has oki). But... I think performance-wise, Tsubaki does better than Rachel (then again I haven't seen a video with Tsubaki in it that's any sort of current).

But... IMO the only thing that keeps Rachel up at all is her 5A/2A. If she still had CT versions of those moves, she wouldn't even be worth playing.

Posted
She gets charge pretty easily against Tager at least, which means she can use 236d pretty liberally. That thing is really good for footsies against Tager. I'm pretty sure you can block full screen spark on reaction from 2d charging. If he gets you once it can get super ugly though since even D dp is projectile based I believe.

you mean the move that looks like charging stars? no that gets her killed.

Posted
you mean the move that looks like charging stars? no that gets her killed.

Yeah, isn't that a free 720 or 360 IB'd?

Posted

Tsubaki install is one of her saving graces, a throw > tsubaki install is an easy 4K (a lot for Tsubaki).

Posted
Yeah, isn't that a free 720 or 360 IB'd?

and its not hard to IB...by that logic hells fang is great against tager in footsies.

which is not true, in the game of footsies you don't throw anything out mindlessly.

@ LK: tsubaki is like CT tager except she sucks...yeah I just said that.

Posted

Tsubaki vs tager is clearly in tager's favor.

The thing about this match is that when you distance yourself from tager, after a bnb, you can get charge so you'll constantly average 3000. 22d is the most effective against tager. You can poke him from 5b range and 22D. If you see A sledge you can release 22d early on reaction and it will win. Even if tager tries to jump 22d he can still get hit at times just because of his hitbox. This is the only match where you constantly get to see tsubaki average over 3k, and in some cases 5.2k with 3 charge and 50 heat. I do this to tagers all the time. 5B can give tager some trouble at times, but it's still not enough. When she's magnetised there's little she can do, and her only answer to GF is her DP, but A sledge beats her DP and it can be baited out. Although be careful though. If tsubaki has 3 charges and she wants to escape she can 623D j.236D j.214D. So watch out for that and she can rapid that if all else fails.

Imo tsubaki and rachel are very close in tiers. Funny thing is rachel is actually the better rushdown character :vbang:. Cat chair >>>>>> tsubaki's DPs. Tsubaki's DP trades with normals. Yeah that's right folks, with normals. 0 invincibility, unless you use the D version, but then you're sacrificing a charge which you need for damage and which is almost impossible to get against everyone else but carl/haku/tager. Rachels wind regenerates, no charging needed, nuff said. Rachels normals >>>>>> tsubaki's normals. Tsubaki's normals are similar to carls normals. They suck. 5B is the only range she has whatsoever but even that trades at times and it gets beat by ragna's 5b clean.

Her D moves put her at a disadvantage on block. Can you believe that. A charge based moved putting me at a disadvantage ON BLOCK. The same charge that I need for everything and work hard to get against everyone but 3 characters? I might as well have used her non-charge unsafe versions, cause it's practically the same thing. You will whiff normals at point blank range, and get punished severly for it. If you want to break 4k without heat you have to start off 22D and have like 3 charge and be in the corners. Seriously!?!?!? 22d is so gimmicky it can only work so many times. Her offensive game and trying to deal damage is based soley on trickery, gimmicks, and conditioning. Her offense/mixup is not solid at all. Her mugen mode is nice, but the damage dealt for 50 heat and for the amount of charge wasted is not enough. You make a choice between sacrificing oki for charge, or not charge and dealing measly damage only to get counter hit and take 3x more damage.

Those are just a few points.

Theoreticallly Tsubaki is the worst character in the game. You'll have more success with rachel.

Realistically rachel is the worst ONLY BECAUSE OF HER DAMAGE. She doesn't deal enough, and the top deal too much.

I really hope the patch can change more than just proration numbers. I'm talking about hitboxes and such, cause rachel can be easily fixed with number changes. Tsubaki needs an overhaul of hitboxes, damage, how she gains meter, etc.

Posted

IMO bottom tier goes Tsubaki Noel Tager Rachel.

I don't think Tsubaki could possibly be worse than Rachel and two characters whose entire game is based on guessing.

Don't get me wrong she IS terrible, she has terrible damage and weird dumb hitboxes but at least she isn't going through entire matches saying "Man I sure do hope this command grab/5d beats this attack."

Posted
IMO bottom tier goes Tsubaki Noel Tager Rachel.

I don't think Tsubaki could possibly be worse than Rachel and two characters whose entire game is based on guessing.

lol, no way. Noel and tager >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tsubaki>rachel. You think tsubaki is good DC? So good as to be better than noel? Nah. Noel and tager are miles ahead of tsubaki.

Posted

I edited my post before you quoted, soz. But yes, I do think Tsubaki is better than Noel and Tager. Maybe not in every matchup but a better character over all.

But no, I don't think she's a good character. Kinda like a lesser of two evils thing, except like, lesser of two shit characters.

Posted
IMO bottom tier goes Tsubaki Noel Tager Rachel.

I don't think Tsubaki could possibly be worse than Rachel and two characters whose entire game is based on guessing.

Don't get me wrong she IS terrible, she has terrible damage and weird dumb hitboxes but at least she isn't going through entire matches saying "Man I sure do hope this command grab/5d beats this attack."

No, Noel actually has potent damage with her funky as shot Haida loops, She can break 5K Meterless. Her problem is that her mixup game is lousy and being a paperweight with suit range.

Posted

Funny thing is tsubaki's aerial moves, like j.214 a/b/c/d or j.236 a/b/c/d aren't even overheads. You can block them low. Like I said, i really hope the patch is more than just proration numbers, cause rachel will be fixed to some degree, but tsubaki will be the worst until the next game.

Posted
No, Noel actually has potent damage with her funky as shot Haida loops, She can break 5K Meterless. Her problem is that her mixup game is lousy and being a paperweight with suit range.

Exactly. I'm well aware of her damage but she has no safe way of getting them. If you were to try to play Noel as safe as possible your average damage is around 1.2k. Thus, if you want to do damage you have to start guessing, fishing for random 5d/2d hits (and note that 2d is no longer an overhead). Good yomi and IBing helps with fishing for those hits, but at the end of the day, MOST of the time you're not 100% sure that it's gonna hit. That's guessing, that's bad. You could say the same for ever attack in the game (if you're not punishing someone) but throwing out Tsuba's little hand poke (5c I think?) ain't the same as throwing out Chain Revolver. Sure, there's overhead (1) and lows with Chain Revolver, but against DP characters it doesn't make a damn difference. If you fish for a hit with Chain Revolver and don't hit with the first attack, you CAN get reversaled. I don't know why so many people try to block Chain Revolver. You don't have to.

Dacidbro knows, lol. I saw some video with him vs. a Noel player who swore Chain Revolver was some sort of good mixup tool. As soon as you block the first hit, mash dat Daifunka and it's free. Mash guard point. Mash counter. Mash DP. Hell, you can mash Chain Revolver against Chain Revolver.

If 2d was still an overhead it would be a better (Read: still bad) mixup tool, but it's not.

That's how it is.

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