DaiAndOh Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 ................ ................ dude you make Hazama out to be way more gdlk than he is, he's solid no doubt, but he's not some kind of walking rape machine, yeah he has good poke, but other characters have better ones, his zoning is great, and he can escape pressure, but his options aren't bullet proof. yeah he's got a mid range game, but other characters have better mid range game.... and etc. Also on a personal note you're kind of a dick, which is fine, but it's very disprortional, and you're going to say something like "no, I'm just telling the truth" which is a red herring, it doesn't change anything, you assume alot of people and you know the saying. I think he's coming off as dickish to you because he keeps trying repeat himself and bring a point across when he knows he is right and other people keep disagreeing. It's a frustrating thing coming from one with experience, and I'm not referring to anything on dustloop or even the internet here.
Zidane Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I don't make Hazama out to be more than Top 3. Top 3 is godlike in general. Whenever you say "Other chars have better X", you do realize you don't list those characters? I'll list them though. Litchi Bang And other chars have 1 or 2 random pokes pokes that are better than Hazama's mid-game ( Ragna 5B, Hakumen 4C/jC, Mu jC ) but that's it. Some other chars have one or two random pokes that are better than some of Hazama's pokes, not even all of them at mid-range. But anyway, regarding the personal thing, nothing i've said about him or redsilversnake has been an assumption and I am going to say "i'm just telling the truth". I'm not personally attacking them. Redsilversnake had no concept of command throws and teching them and wants to tell someone else how a character and the system works. ZhePrime is telling me you can't combo off 214DA when you can. He's saying Hazama can't escape pressure when he can. I'm not going through every post and shitting on people for no reason. These guys are blatantly saying WRONG things with authority, causing other people to believe them. It's the equivalent of me saying Litchi isn't top whatever because without her pole she sucks. Her midgame gets beat by people like Hakumen and Ragna's. Her life isn't that good. Her DP can't be RCed so it sucks. Her oki isn't that good. That's what these people are pretty much saying and it's dumb.
smooshman Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I think he's coming off as dickish to you because he keeps trying repeat himself and bring a point across when he knows he is right and other people keep disagreeing. It's a frustrating thing coming from one with experience, and I'm not referring to anything on dustloop or even the internet here. fair enough so on topic of hazama, what's the opinion versus Jin? I see it as 5-5, or even slightly in hazama's favor. the biggest issue for jin is the neurtal game, he can cancel his drive with his and swords but he gains no ground... so it's back to square one. however Jin's blessed with the gift of having some of the only attacks with higher priority than hotenjin, as well as having touga hyoujin (ice wave, great projectile punish). A-A surprsisngly for Jin (he usually enjoys good a-a control), Hazama's one of the few characters with an attack that rivals JC Haku' JC is really the only one that beats it out most of the time, but Hazama's JB is as good as Jin's JC. Jin's Dp's can mess up a sloppy approach by hazama, but even that's hit or miss and die. Once both characters get heat the match becomes almost a guessing game, since both have great heat options. It's very menotenous, methodical.
soujiro seta Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 1) It's hard to pressure Hazama with anyone except say Hakumen, Litchi, Bang, Ragna and Carl. And those are some of the best characters in the game. Know why it's hard? He has a D button that lets him go wherever the fuck he wants. Now you're going to say "but you just said earlier sometimes you can't D out hyuck hyuck!". And then i'm going to say if you're good at this game, you should know when a bad situation is coming and how to avoid it. It's easy as fuck to avoid shit with Hazama. Lol, what's going on in this thread. It's easy to see why hazama is around that S tier position, but I'll have to disagree with you on one thing, it being easy to pressure hazama with carl. IB jayoku is just too ridiculous in sandwich pressure. First you have to catch haz, carl and tager are the two worst characters when it comes to trying to catch haz, god this matchup makes me rage so much. There's only 1 nigga that can play the hit and run game better than hazama against carl, and that's tao, but that's a different topic. The problem in the carl vs haz matchup is that you have to catch him first to pressure him. Problem is you might end up losing the match not because he did anything special, but simply because, just like tao, he gets a few hits, pokes at you from full screen and runs away all day. Now if he were just like tao, once you finally got him and started pressuring you wouldn't have to worry about much right? Nope, tao doesn't have a reversal that you can't use RC to safe yourself from. There are certain characters that you have to be very careful around when pressuring with carl. It depends on whether you have them in sandwich postion, or backed up against the wall in the Wall-Opponent-nirvana-carl position. These characters are Hazama, Haku, and tager. You have to be careful around everyone but these 3 in particular Tager - If you have him by the wall with nirvana between you 2 then you can poke at tager safely with 5C and do 8d. If he tries anything he runs the risk of getting CH by 8D or 5C. In sandwich, now you have to be really careful cause he can snatch you with 360/720 for half your life easily. Haku/Haz - These two characters are always a threat regardless of the position. Haku's DD counter and counter moves in general, and hazama's jayoku pose such a threat. Haku will always have 8 stars, and haz gets meter just by poking at nirvana. You can't RC to save yourself from haku's DD counter/D counters or jayoku. Both characters deal big damage of all of those, which means half of carls life gone. Your mixup should always be at it's best regardless of who you're playing, but against those 3, with carl, you have to leave so many holes in your pressure, especially for haz and haku, because the reward they get off IB punish makes such quick work of carl. Trying to mix them up is so scary, especially haz and haku, cause of jayoku and D countering.
Jourdal Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 ................ ................ dude you make Hazama out to be way more gdlk than he is, he's solid no doubt, but he's not some kind of walking rape machine, yeah he has good poke, but other characters have better ones, his zoning is great, and he can escape pressure, but his options aren't bullet proof. yeah he's got a mid range game, but other characters have better mid range game.... and etc. Also on a personal note you're kind of a dick, which is fine, but it's very disprortional, and you're going to say something like "no, I'm just telling the truth" which is a red herring, it doesn't change anything, you assume alot of people and you know the saying. Smooshman to OCV SBO 2010 with his Jin, doesn't even need a partner. All jokes aside, with all this arguing where's the source of that list? The changes don't really surprise me except maybe how low Ragna (someone explain this?).
BladeOfJustice7 Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Yea yukikaze makes people second guess, but it's not THAT effective at top playing mind games, you have to really know your opponents block strings. Best used for yukikaze and all other counters (including akumetsu if you wanna be excessively stylish) is to ib>counter. But those you have to be careful with, they aren't as securing as compared to jayoku houtenjin, I find at least. But personally, I don't find haku versus hazama in haku's favor though. It looks even to me and from what I experienced, cutting ouroboros isn't that easy.
smooshman Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Smooshman to OCV SBO 2010 with his Jin, doesn't even need a partner. All jokes aside, with all this arguing where's the source of that list? The changes don't really surprise me except maybe how low Ragna (someone explain this?). I plan on it lol. yeah I don't see why Ragna dropped like a rock, I mean sure his mixup isn't great, but the only character with good mixup is Bang. Which basically makes Ragna a normal character in terms of mixup, it's just that if he lands one he can rip you a new asshole.
Jourdal Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I plan on it lol. yeah I don't see why Ragna dropped like a rock, I mean sure his mixup isn't great, but the only character with good mixup is Bang. Which basically makes Ragna a normal character in terms of mixup, it's just that if he lands one he can rip you a new asshole. I saw this a while back when surfing (lol)gamefaqs The way Stunedge(hc0519) described it, Ragna is solid and great damage and stuff, but his **** is figured out to the point that you need to go super random or you won't land a single hit.
smooshman Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I saw this a while back when surfing (lol)gamefaqs so his mixup.... isn't by definition mixup? that's.... kinda.... anyway, the thing is that despite average mixup it's still very tough to out RTSD him.
Klaige Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Not that i have any intention of joining this retard parade. But if i see one more person reference hazama's 214D~B as a reversal, i'm going to punch you. That move has so much startup that an ape with down syndrome could meaty it to prevent it from being used as such. Seriously.. quit being that fucking stupid. Also war that faggot Zidane playing my character in yet another game. Yes im talking to you east coast, suck my ass.
dragontamer Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Who said that? Surely no one is that stupid... if 214D~B is a reversal, then so is Bang's 5A. Seriously I mean, Bang's 5A strikes on frame 6, while 214D~B's invincibility comes out on frame 7 IIRC...
Afrikaan Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 It's a common netplay tactic, but then again lolnetplay.
huey253 Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 oh, when i said reversal i meant frame 1 invul, sorry for not clearing it up. and yes EVERYBODY in bb can abuse IB punish, even rachel. i see what your saying Zidane, i just think he isn't on the same level as Bang and Litchi. i think he is slightly better than carl and hakumen but still not in that S tier. so yes, i totally agree that he is 3rd best, but i can't see him being as good as Bang or Litchi atm imo.
DaiAndOh Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Ummm because BB is BB, you can't always expect a meaty attack to connect. That is, the opponent doesn't have to quick get up and can tech to either side. Bang's 5a is basically a reversal btw.
huey253 Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 yeah so is every other normal/special/DD in the game.... okay, i'll use DP instead. hazama does not have a dragon punch that is invinicble on frame 1, but i think you knew what i meant.
ZhePrime Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I'll split my response into 2 posts, one for each person. You're speaking like Hazama without meter is a rare thing... I'm saying that Hazama will not always have 50% Heat or even 100% for that matter, which is accurate. Assuming he will always have 50% heat in a match? Okay? but that's besides the point. He has no reversals without meter? Try quick-get-up command throw and 214DB. Hate to break it to you, but yes, 214DB is a viable option: invul from frame 7, the pushback from it on block, and it's amazing hitbox you have to dodge to make it wiff show all the reasons why you still need to respect it as a reversal. If you're on the ground it's not as scary (you still need to respect it... don't mistime your meaty), but if you're jumping at him you better damn well block. 236C can easily be avoided (and is usually done so unintentionally) due to its short range. And 214D~B still won't stop a ton of stuff that normal DP's can and it also has an additional window of vulnerability. As I've been saying up until now, A really fucking solid character with respect to the rest of the cast, also known as S/A+ tier. In your opinion sure. Strange how suddenly everyone flared up after some pretty random tierlist popped up. Some of you are not trying to justify his position on that list, but literally trying to tell everyone else that Hazama is our new god. It's as if you woke up one morning with the idea in your head that is so unbelieavably good compared to everyone else, that he has no weaknesses etc. A single or even 2 people can't make that call and a forum (and this thread) is meant to discuss the matchups and characters. People are still people. Take it easy. Everything except 2B and 3C. But even those aren't horrible. So basically all of his normal move list consists of some of the best pokes in the game? Not trying to offend here, but are you joking? Ground-to-ground: this has already been explained by Zidane (and others) in a previous post(s), that actually aren't too far back. You should utilize your pile of horse shit you call a brain and look a few pages back. But you want to be spoon fed don't you? Air-to-air: jB is stupid good. His D normals are also good. [This was also stated in previous posts]. I've followed this thread since around page 100 (and before that I've read select posts). So I have read most of the stuff up till this point. But it is extremely common in a discussion when some people get heated to say "X has already been discussed before, are you [insult]?" When someone makes a statement, a very bold one at that, he or she should expect questions. If they can't answer properly the credibility drops. Answering simple questions shouldn't be this difficult. Or let's say that it had been explained indepth, the normal thing to do is to direct said person there, not flail away on they keyboard (this is probably due to your current ire, so not really your fault per se). So j.B and j.D are his great AtA tools? Meaning a bunch of other character have something worse than this in the AtA department. And really, take it easy. If you can't hold a discussion with someone right now come back later when you've calmed down. He has so many things to need to respect all at once that make him so hard to shut down, so in order to deal with that you have give yourself a little space, which gives HIM SPACE, which then lets him do whatever the fuck he wants again. He can zone all he wants, are you kidding me... you're underestimating his ability to get in random hits. He controls so much of the screen at once it's ridiculous. And as I said, he's at his best at short and long-range, at mid distance he's not very strong And what was implied was that he's never in harms way, that he never has to enter the fray. An example, if Hakumen has a health lead are you as a Hazama player gone sit there throwing chains at him all day until he gets 8 magatamas and you get negative penalty? You won't get any random hits there unless you fly or dash in (on block and him ready), which is not safe at all. The things you have said in this thread are insulting to anyone with a brain. Do you even play this game? The things you've said are so fucking stupid that you almost come off as a troll. If you're not trying to troll you need to stop posting to save yourself from more humiliation. Seriously... just stop posting. It's idiots like you that are putting this forum into a downward spiral. I have done nothing wrong, but what I wrote obviously irritated and angered you, for some reason. If I have done something wrong, by all means pinpoint exactly where I did something wrong and what it was. But you really need to take a little break (a recommendation, not a command) from DL if you can't discuss calmly, it's not good for any of the involved if someone gets angry, it will only boils down into namecalling and who's moter is what in the end, which isn't my style.
MisterBadguy Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 wut Seriously, dude, you're arguing with some of the best players in the country, and the only one who looks like an ass here is you. Maybe you're the one who needs to take a break because I for one am glad to see people who know what they're talking about posting in this shit fest.
St1ckBuG Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 If you're going to say things that show you have no idea how to play this game (or fighting games in general), then you should stop posting any questions until you've come back after playing good players for a while. You should go to a few tournaments, get bodied by good players, and then come back after you know what is going on. How are you going to say Hazama isn't good when you've never played a good one? Youtube and Nico will only take you so far... you actually need to sit down and play the game for a bit. If you're the best player on your block, good for you, try other blocks. Instead of quoting what you've said I'll just list my thoughts: -You ask for options and we give them to you, but you just theory fight in the end instead of accepting that it's a legit option. This just shows your own incompetence to accept good options. -If you can't tell why Hazama's better than everyone else below him on the tier list from what we're telling you, then you need to take a step back and play some fighting games for a while, not just BB. You need a better understanding of what makes a good character good. -If you don't want to count his mixup options/specials as pokes then I can understand where you're coming from, but if all you're going to say is 'are you kidding me', then you're just avoiding my point. 5A is a godly AA and wiffs on crouching which is good for throw/poke mixup. 2A is fast, good for tick throws and really doesn't change his combos depending on how well you can hit confirm with it. His 5B has very good frame data, hitbox, and good proration. The list goes on. When I think of poke I think of all normals (because of stagger pressure and mixup) while you're just thinking of a normal you can space and use to hit confirm (which is a legit way to think). If that's the case, then his specials are all good along with his D normals as they are safe, control a lot of space, and are easy to hit confirm off of...who cares about his normals with that being said? What else could you ask for? -It's hard to hold a discussion with someone when they're ignoring what some of the best BB players in the US (not myself) are telling you. They're trying to help you and you're just being an idiot. How the hell can I not get mad? -Hazama has the best space control in the game. The fact that you're saying he's 'not very strong' at ANY range makes no sense. -He has the best movement in the game and you act like approaching someone while turtling against him is impossible. Once again, you've been watching vidoes and theory fighting instead of playing the game. -Everything about Hazama was discussed before our posts. Just because the questions and opinions that people were asking before weren't word for word with yours doesn't mean the answers/retorts don't cover what you're trying to get at. What you've been doing wrong is: 1). Posting wrong information. 2). Not listening to players much wiser than yourself. 3). Trying to theory fight but failing miserably. You're one of the many people that have joined these forums within the past year (due to BB being released no doubt), who come in spouting bad/wrong information on a forum that was originally developed for the exchange of good information among players that wanted to get better at GG (and later BB). It's pretty insulting when you're doing the polar opposite.
Synthesis Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 I think everyone needs to shut up about Hazama. He's really good, we get it. Stop arguing and trying to say he isn't. This is a matchup thread. =/ As for matchups I wanted to ask the Hazama players here, as well as the Mu players what they think of the Hazama/Mu matchup. The Mu matchup thread isn't exactly a good place because we only get Mu perspectives and Tempest had said that it was a horrible matchup for Mu with no clear cut explanation as to why. The other Mu players are also probably too gung-ho about Mu to look at the matchup objectively as well. Here are my thoughts: I have played the matchup multiple times and I don't see how it is in Hazama's favor, but that is potentially because the Hazama's I have played have been horrible. I believe the matchup is solidly even for these reasons: - Momentum plays the largest role in this match. - They can both zone each other. Hazama does a better job of it but Mu can prevent him from approaching outside of him doing 2DD to get into the air. - They both have ridiculous damage off optimal setups. - Mu has fantastic oki. The threat of a wake-up Jayoku is minimal. She really only needs to look out for IB Jayoku. I heard Omohikane can beat it on reaction (haven't tried it). etc... There are more reasons, I'm just too tired to think of them at this moment. I just want opinions from good Haz players and solid explanations as to why you think that. Thanks.
Nobus3r1 Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 The conclusion I've drawn from this thread is that there are a few people who've played or who play high level Hazamas and there are a lot of people who haven't and the latter group is adamant in their belief that the former groups assessment of the character can't possibly be accurate.
Zidane Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 1) Momentum comment is pretty vague so I can't say much about it except that it's more important for Mu than Hazama 2) Mu has a really hard time zoning Hazama unless he's out of chains to pull himself around. Regular steins are awful; no hit or block stun and the tracking is questionable. Charged up lasers are pretty good but Hazama has a ton of ways around them. D eats them and a combination of it's tracking and Hazama's small hitbox means sometimes it misses when it wouldn't vs. others due to Hazama chaining around and crouching. 3) Mu has ridiculous damage off her FC moves and overhead but there's a distance in the matchup where all her ground pokes lose to Hazama's and he can jump safely over any of her pokes and punish anything that's pretty much not A since all her moves have pretty bad recovery. Not to mention Hazama does more damage ( usually, not always ), he has more setups for that damage and the setups are safer / easier to set up than Mu's. 4) Mu has ok/decent oki. I don't know why the threat of Hotenjin is ever minimal; Even with big lasers on top, if you throw out a poke you still eat 2500. Assuming the lasers don't bounce atleast 3-4 times, Hazama still combos off that Hotenjin. She also needs to look out for 236C, 214DB, and jump-chain out. Depending on what normal she throws out, she can cancel it into DP from Hotenjin super flash but it's not as good as Ragna's ability to cancel into DP ( he can do it later than Mu i'm pretty sure, not 100% so sorry about that ) This is one of those matchups where Hazama controls it as soon as the round starts. He can either rush down or chain away full screen and Mu still can't setup any sort of stein formation for fear of Hazama coming back in. If she tries to throw out one stein and a big laser, Hazama eats that with D and punishes her. There are some ways for her to set up steins / big lasers but it seems pointless because of how easy it is for Hazama to just fly away. Matchup is 6-4 ( in my opinion ) because it seems Mu only gets in or does big damage based off Hazama's mistakes. Hazama could chill full screen if he wanted and Mu can't do much to stop him while Mu doesn't even have close to that luxury. Hazama wins the ground game althrough Mu puts up a fight in the air with jC / j2C. It just seems that Hazama could either decide not to block anything and zone / mess with her mind with chain and win, or he can get in her face and rushdown and win. Even blocking Mu isn't that big of a threat seeing as her mixup isn't anything special at all: average overhead (can't be punished by hotenjin), average lows, throw. Mu's j2C to beat throws is pretty good but then you realize you can not try to throw Mu and just tech her throws and that seems pretty eh too. Mu has to work too hard to punish Hazama's mistakes to get good damage while Hazama can play the matchp zoning, rushing down or defensive and still be on top.
Afrikaan Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Lol the more and more you bring up solid points about Hazama the more and more I have a feeling he'll get toned down in CS2
ZONG_one Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Lol the more and more you bring up solid points about Hazama... Refer to my last post about zidane.
Synthesis Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Thank you very much Zidane. That was actually helpful. ^_^ I agree with all of that but I have a question: Isn't 5D j.2C or any variation thereof safe on block? I know I've caught a ton of players trying to poke out after the j.2C just to get them hit by the laser. Is it possible that her rushdown can be strengthened by mixing up the timing and followups to and from the 5D to bait things/keep the pressure up? Your opinions on this. Also, if anyone wants to check, the other Mu player here in Tucson said that 6B is safe on block/IB (tested with Ragna 5B). I'm too lazy to check myself, but if anyone is willing... I know it loses to Tager buster but if it is indeed safe perhaps that could be another form of stagger pressure Hazama would have to deal with. With your solid points I agree that the matchup is 6-4. That seems about right, but the way they were playing it out in the Mu threads made it seem like it was 7-3 to 8-2 horrible, and I just wasn't seeing that. Thanks for everything, Zidane.
FlyingVe Posted September 7, 2010 Posted September 7, 2010 Mu's 6B is -3, which is pretty safe in BB. You can usually backdash away afterwards but that can be dealt with. The biggest problem is being hit out of it, since it is pretty slow (and he gattlings don't have much hit stun), or the second hit being IB'd since it's a 2 hit move. I agree with the 6-4 assessment, Mu does well with momentum on her side, but getting that momentum is really hard against Haz.
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