BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[huey253]

how is mu and lambda vs makato?

[FlyingVe]

I think Mu v Makoto is about 4.5-5.5 Makoto's favor. Mu is really good at keeping Makoto out, but Makoto does silly damage, parry autocorrects, and BBS punishes alot of stein stuff fullscreen. However, with Mu's range and DP to punish the predictable Mixup, all makoto's stuff is manageable.

[Afrikaan]

I find Lambda v Makoto to be in Makoto's favor. Once Makoto has 50 Meter Lambda can't zone with shit or she gets a BBS to the face. 3C goes under her 5D and she just completely outclasses her upclose. I'd say it's a 6-4 in favor of Makoto and probably worse.

I have no clue about Mu v Makoto, Mu's a bit better up close, but eh, I won't speak on a character I don't play as or against too often.

[farranpoison]

Yeah no.

Hahahaha, I love how people just look at Makoto's damage and assume top tier.

Play character first plz.

I find Lambda v Makoto to be in Makoto's favor. Once Makoto has 50 Meter Lambda can't zone with shit or she gets a BBS to the face. 3C goes under her 5D and she just completely outclasses her upclose. I'd say it's a 6-4 in favor of Makoto and probably worse.

Nowhere near 6-4, more like 5-5 if anything. Makoto gets zoned hard by Lambda, and a random BBS is easily baited by a good Lambda. Makoto has a hard time approaching since 2C beats anything Makoto has in the air, and 214D causes Makoto to jump in where she's at a disadvantage in the air. However, once she does get in, Lambda is pressured hard by Makoto, and Lambda does have to respect that a sword whiff will cause them to get BBS'd.

[huey253]

well, i'm not looking at her damage.

i'm looking at her beating everybody below A tier with the exception of tager and maybe jin.

[FlyingVe]

There's more to it than that. Tier placement is how well you do against the whole cast, High tiers included. The logic of, "She's beats all the B tiers, therfore she's A tier", just doesn't work.

[mundus]

Hahahaha, I love how people just look at Makoto's damage and assume top tier.

Play character first plz.

Nowhere near 6-4, more like 5-5 if anything. Makoto gets zoned hard by Lambda, and a random BBS is easily baited by a good Lambda. Makoto has a hard time approaching since 2C beats anything Makoto has in the air, and 214D causes Makoto to jump in where she's at a disadvantage in the air. However, once she does get in, Lambda is pressured hard by Makoto, and Lambda does have to respect that a sword whiff will cause them to get BBS'd.

Got no opinion of the matchup, but doesn't her jump 2C (or whatever that tail attack is) beat Lambdas 2C? Also the slide beats all of Lambdas pokes if she is midrange and her distortion makes you unable to do anything except blades that will hit. I think you can parry her projectiles and the ball destroys spike chaser. However as i said i don't have an opinion as i haven't played the matchup myself more than once or twice and my Lambda is shit.

[huey253]

but..... all of the other A tiers beat b tier and lose to S tier :P

i don't think she gets slaughtered againist Bang from what i've experienced, (ragna and litchi probably beat her up though)

her normals suck ass, but she has lots of tools and yes big damage.

i see her being A at the best and B+ at the worst. having positive matchups againist half the cast doesn't hurt.

[farranpoison]

Makoto j.2C is really easy to see once you get used to it. It only works like once or twice.

Makoto 3C beats Lambda 5C and 5D, but honestly, you can't count on it a lot. Lambda 214D, 3C and such will beat your ass if you use slide too much.

[Zidane]

Everyone saying Hazama is A-B tier, citing the CT Jin thing:

Hazama and CT Jin sound the same on paper; no bad matchups, can fight the top tier. The difference is that the top tier is so radically different from CT to CS that they're not the same at all.

CT Jin was solid in a game where Top 3 had tools ( read: WMDs ) that could kill anyone off any random hit. Rachel had... everything. Arakune won after one curse. Good luck catching Nu.

So CT Jin, let's say is A across the board in shit like defense, oki, offense, whatever. Top 3 had letters in an alphabet the rest of the cast wasn't even aware existed in some categories.

In CS, Litchi, Bang and whoever else anyone wants to place next is S in a lot of categories, but definitely weaker in a few. They don't have any of the shit top 3 in CT had. Hazama is S and A in everything he does. He excels in everything a fighting game character should be able to do and has no flaws. That's why he's top 3, or S tier, or S-, or whatever the fuck anyone wants to say besides A-B tier.

Just because he can't do a 30 second 4-5K combo and end with stupid oki like Litchi or blindly hit 5A/2A into too-good mixup like Bang doesn't mean he's not as good. When Litchi doesn't have her pole and is being pressured, it's hard for her to get out. Bang without nails is a lot less scary. Hazama is at peak performance at all times.

[smooshman]

Hazama is at peak performance at all times.

yeah, but he doesn't rape the rest of the cast like Bang or Litchi, I'd believe he might be in the same tier as Ragna, but not Bang or Litchi. He's a very solid character, but he doesn't slaughter the cast. Though maybe it's a biased I have that I find Ragna to be a terrible matchup for me and Hazama even.

[huey253]

to be fair, hazama does not have a true reversal until he has meter (and even then its not godsend), but hazama doesn't need meter for his combos like hakumen does.

[Zidane]

You're right. He doesn't rape the rest of the cast like Bang or Litchi do. He doesn't have raw burst damage off any poke and huge damage off mixup without meter. That could be why they say Hazama is #3 and not #1 or 2 you know.

Except he still rapes the rest of the cast. BnB that does 3K damage and gives enough meter that your next combo, even if it's 2A x 10, will get you 50% meter. Best D button in the game, used as zoning, pressure, mindgames, etc. Some of the best pokes in the game which all lead to the same 2-3K damage combo that ends in knockdown, usually in the corner, good oki and gives more meter than it should. High/low mixup that's safe. Invul command throw. Hotenjin combos that not only do anywhere from 2 - 7K, and depending on the distance, will get you back the 50% meter you just spent. Throw combos that can go upwards of 4K without meter, netting you 49-51%. Throw combos that when used with Hotenjin, do 50% and gain you 40% of the 50% you just spent back. Great anti-airs. Great ground-to-ground. Great air-to-air. jB and j2C crossup at such ridiculous ranges and still combo into Hotenjin. Mashy jC's hitbox is retardedly good and on whiff is safe. Causes 60-70% of the cast to play Hazama's game with just the D button at the start of any match. Any poke whiffed EXCEPT 3C and 2B either can't be punished at all or the situation in which to punish it is so specific/only top tier can do it it doesn't matter. Has better-than-average life.

But I guess Ragna is better. I mean, he does 4K damage, his 5B is pretty baller and America can't block high.

EDIT: What do you mean when y ou say reversal? Like "IB X and mash on Y to get out of pressure" such as a DP? Or do you mean to just avoid pressure? Cause Hazama has this thing right.. It's called the D button. He presses it and then he presses it again and the gods allow him safe passage to the Full Screens where he could no longer be troubled by such silly things like "pokes" and "pressure".

[HiagoX]

to be fair, hazama does not have a true reversal until he has meter (and even then its not godsend), but hazama doesn't need meter for his combos like hakumen does.

It's not godsend, but his meter gain is good enough.

[ZhePrime]

Just because he can't do a 30 second 4-5K combo and end with stupid oki like Litchi or blindly hit 5A/2A into too-good mixup like Bang doesn't mean he's not as good. When Litchi doesn't have her pole and is being pressured, it's hard for her to get out. Bang without nails is a lot less scary. Hazama is at peak performance at all times.

Except he still rapes the rest of the cast.

Did it slip your mind that he has no reversal without meter? That without meter he can't do squat and on wakeup he doesn't have any solid options, etc.? Stop trying to make Hazama sound like a god while trampling everyone else into the ground.

He's a solid character, that's it.

Some of the best pokes in the game

Which ones?

Great anti-airs. Great ground-to-ground. Great air-to-air.

2C and 214D~B are solid, 623D is okay.

But what are his great GtG or AtA attacks?

EDIT: What do you mean when y ou say reversal? Like "IB X and mash on Y to get out of pressure" such as a DP? Or do you mean to just avoid pressure? Cause Hazama has this thing right.. It's called the D button. He presses it and then he presses it again and the gods allow him safe passage to the Full Screens where he could no longer be troubled by such silly things like "pokes" and "pressure".

Hazama will never get pressured? Never get caught in oki? Is that what you're saying?

He can't run away and zone all day either unless you like Negative Penalty for some reason.

[Afrikaan]

It's not godsend, but his meter gain is good enough.

Yeah, I'd say it's 3rd behind Litchi's and Ragna's. Then again, Ragna doesn't have a D button that nets you 1 heat every blocked Ouroboros and 2 on hit plus the followup combo ensuing, so I guess it evens out in the end.

[smooshman]

Yeah, I'd say it's 3rd behind Litchi's and Ragna's. Then again, Ragna doesn't have a D button that nets you 1 heat every blocked Ouroboros and 2 on hit plus the followup combo ensuing, so I guess it evens out in the end.

nah, Jin's DP D is better than Litchi's

[Mumm-Ra]

EDIT: What do you mean when y ou say reversal? Like "IB X and mash on Y to get out of pressure" such as a DP? Or do you mean to just avoid pressure? Cause Hazama has this thing right.. It's called the D button. He presses it and then he presses it again and the gods allow him safe passage to the Full Screens where he could no longer be troubled by such silly things like "pokes" and "pressure".

nah, Jin's DP D is better than Litchi's

I'm so confused right now.

[HiagoX]

nah, Jin's DP D is better than Litchi's

We were talking about meter gain, and not DPs...

[smooshman]

We were talking about meter gain, and not DPs...

oh, I got lost in context....

well my answer still stands, jin has an above average meter gain modifier, and does enough damage to have 25 meter at most times....

Though it might be better to say that his heat gain fits him the best.

[DaiAndOh]

I'm not gonna stay around and argue. If I do the words I use will likely get this star next to my name removed at this point.

Just know that for all the haters and arguers, unless you're magically as good as Japanese or among the 5 or so best players in America, you'd get shit on by Zidane in a match.

I'm also going to ignore the obligatory response of being better in game doesn't make you know it better.

[St1ckBuG]

Did it slip your mind that he has no reversal without meter? That without meter he can't do squat and on wakeup he doesn't have any solid options, etc.? Stop trying to make Hazama sound like a god while trampling everyone else into the ground.

You're speaking like Hazama without meter is a rare thing... but that's besides the point. He has no reversals without meter? Try quick-get-up command throw and 214DB. Hate to break it to you, but yes, 214DB is a viable option: invul from frame 7, the pushback from it on block, and it's amazing hitbox you have to dodge to make it wiff show all the reasons why you still need to respect it as a reversal. If you're on the ground it's not as scary (you still need to respect it... don't mistime your meaty), but if you're jumping at him you better damn well block.

He's a solid character, that's it.

A really fucking solid character with respect to the rest of the cast, also known as S/A+ tier.

Which ones?

Everything except 2B and 3C. But even those aren't horrible.

2C and 214D~B are solid, 623D is okay.

But what are his great GtG or AtA attacks?

Ground-to-ground: this has already been explained by Zidane (and others) in a previous post(s), that actually aren't too far back. You should utilize your pile of horse shit you call a brain and look a few pages back. But you want to be spoon fed don't you?

Air-to-air: jB is stupid good. His D normals are also good. [This was also stated in previous posts].

Hazama will never get pressured? Never get caught in oki? Is that what you're saying?

He can't run away and zone all day either unless you like Negative Penalty for some reason.

He has so many things to need to respect all at once that make him so hard to shut down, so in order to deal with that you have give yourself a little space, which gives HIM SPACE, which then lets him do whatever the fuck he wants again. He can zone all he wants, are you kidding me... you're underestimating his ability to get in random hits. He controls so much of the screen at once it's ridiculous.

The things you have said in this thread are insulting to anyone with a brain. Do you even play this game? The things you've said are so fucking stupid that you almost come off as a troll. If you're not trying to troll you need to stop posting to save yourself from more humiliation. Seriously... just stop posting. It's idiots like you that are putting this forum into a downward spiral.

[Zidane]

Did it slip your mind that he has no reversal without meter? That without meter he can't do squat and on wakeup he doesn't have any solid options, etc.? Stop trying to make Hazama sound like a god while trampling everyone else into the ground.

He's a solid character, that's it.

I'm pretty sure he does have a reversal without meter and it's called 214DB. Next you're going to complain that that's not a good option, and you might be right, seeing as how it's not invul to atleast 7-8 frames, although it has it's uses. Then i'm going to say that IB mash works just as well for Hazama as it does anyone else in BB. Then you're going to say mashing doesn't work in top-level play ( although it does against Hazama's stance overhead apparently ). Then i'm going to say if you can't IB and jump-chain out, which works against almost the whole cast cause almost no one's pressure is that tight, sit there and block. Then you're going to complain about blocking because... you suck? I dunno.

Which ones?

5A, 2A, 5B, 5C, 3C, jB, jC, j2C.

2C and 214D~B are solid, 623D is okay.

But what are his great GtG or AtA attacks?

First of all, 2C and 214DB are not solid. Ragna's 6A is solid. Tao's 6A is solid. Hazama's 2C is one of the best AAs in the game, not to mention it serves as a good ground-to-ground poke as well. 214DB, when used vs. an airborne opponent, can almost never be punished. It probably can't be punished but i'm not 100% sure so i'll say almost never.

Good ground to ground pokes? 2A/5A. 5B. 5C. 2C rarely. 214DA. 236D.

Good air to air? jB. jC. The only moves that consistantly beat Hazama's jB is Mu's jC and Hakumen's jC.

Hazama will never get pressured? Never get caught in oki? Is that what you're saying?

He can't run away and zone all day either unless you like Negative Penalty for some reason.

1) It's hard to pressure Hazama with anyone except say Hakumen, Litchi, Bang, Ragna and Carl. And those are some of the best characters in the game. Know why it's hard? He has a D button that lets him go wherever the fuck he wants. Now you're going to say "but you just said earlier sometimes you can't D out hyuck hyuck!". And then i'm going to say if you're good at this game, you should know when a bad situation is coming and how to avoid it. It's easy as fuck to avoid shit with Hazama.

2) The only person with true Oki in this game is Litchi. Everything else can either be guess tech rolled out of or mashed or Hotenjined or DPed or thrown or *gasp* blocked because not everyone has super good mixup.

Actually that's not true. Hazama has pretty good oki too when the opponent is in the corner. Which is a lot. But Hazama's not godlike or anything so let's ignore that.

3) He actually CAN run away and zone all game if he wants. See, you D full screen away. And then they're at the other end. And then you spam D in various angles to either make them scared to come in or you stop their get in. Then you get chains back cause it hit them or they blocked it. Then you repeat the process over again. Flying full screen doesn't give him negative penalty. Backdashing stupidly does though.

Lastly, although this isn't apart of the post you quoted, i'd like to say... just stop posting. About Hazama atleast. You're not right. You won't be right. You say things like Hazama has no mid-game, 214DA can't be comboed off of. You complain about lack of reversals and how bad moves are when they aren't. You ask me to list what are his good pokes, when if you knew that, you wouldn't be arguing with me.

Just like Redsilversnake, you can continue feeling smug and right based on whatever scrubby matches you've played, but you don't know how Hazama works and the fact you can't see why he's so stupid ( when myself, others and Japan in general ) has told you probably means that you're either not smart, not a good BB player, or both.

[Afrikaan]

For a second there I thought Dai and Sticky were the same person.

Damn matching Avis.

[smooshman]

snip

................

................

dude you make Hazama out to be way more gdlk than he is, he's solid no doubt, but he's not some kind of walking rape machine, yeah he has good poke, but other characters have better ones,

his zoning is great, and he can escape pressure, but his options aren't bullet proof. yeah he's got a mid range game, but other characters have better mid range game....

and etc.

Also on a personal note

you're kind of a dick, which is fine, but it's very disprortional, and you're going to say something like "no, I'm just telling the truth" which is a red herring, it doesn't change anything, you assume alot of people and you know the saying.