BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Zidane]

Man this thread fucking slays me. Mu is top tier. MU IS TOP TIER.

I don't understand why anyone with any sort of skill is trying to post to help people and not just trolling the fuck out of FailLoop.

[LunaKage]

FYI, this list was made by people who play their respective characters.

The people saying that Tager rapes Noel are the same people who thought that match-up was hard in CT... stay free. Also, I guess that first list was bad too, since it listed the match-up at 5-5... and nothing has changed since then. Guess you haven't taken this thread seriously for 240 pages.

(Then again, who actually has taken this thread seriously?)

nah man, Tager was free in CT, stay presumptuous.

[Sophisticat]

Man this thread fucking slays me. Mu is top tier. MU IS TOP TIER.

I don't understand why anyone with any sort of skill is trying to post to help people and not just trolling the fuck out of FailLoop.

How about adding explanations, then? If you're the guy with all the supposed skills and knowledge necessary to determine stuff like this, then it would be appreciated if you did more than just tell us what is and what isn't without evidence to support it.

This chart is a prime example of "showing, but not telling". We all have our own idea of characters, whether we know them in-depth or not, but most importantly, we don't have your views of the characters. Why are these placements the way they are? I know I saw a post by Henaki a while ago where he thought Ara was quite high on the tier list, but this seems to contradict it. Speaking of tiers, didn't a JP list come out just a few weeks ago where everyone was roughly in agreement with it (which, incidentally, also contradicts this chart)?

One thing, though. You do not get a free pass just because you're a top player. Provide relevant information with proof (vids, data, etc.) and supporting arguments, then we might listen. All I know about this Zidane guy is that he does have a high PSR online, and his win rate with Hazama is an impressive 100%, so I'm inclined to believe you on most things. But I'm not convinced if I see something that seems to contradict what I know others ("top players" among them) have said, as well as my own experience.

For example, I trust Spark, the Haku mod here, because he consistently posts facts, data, and well thought-out arguments while also having a couple vids and achievements to his name. I can test what he says and find out it's true. So, I believe I can trust what he says. On the other hand, what I do not trust is throat-shoving. Take the time to make in-depth explanations, and I think more of us would be willing to listen.

[Alzarath]

I can't believe you've done this

[Spirit Juice]

Arcadia doesn't ususally post match up charts so I doubt we'll even see one outside of some JBBS project between a bunch of players (which probably won't happen any time soon either or ever happen). I remember they posted a match up chart for 3S but that game is like 50 years old and the game has been figured out completely. If anything we'll probably get a revised tier list with American Hazama at SSS tier or something.

[Danny Schme]

nah man, Tager was free in CT, stay presumptuous.

CT 5B is what won that match for free.

Though I'm glad to see people are freaking out per usual.

[Zidane]

How about adding explanations, then? If you're the guy with all the supposed skills and knowledge necessary to determine stuff like this, then it would be appreciated if you did more than just tell us what is and what isn't without evidence to support it.

This chart is a prime example of "showing, but not telling". We all have our own idea of characters, whether we know them in-depth or not, but most importantly, we don't have your views of the characters. Why are these placements the way they are? I know I saw a post by Henaki a while ago where he thought Ara was quite high on the tier list, but this seems to contradict it. Speaking of tiers, didn't a JP list come out just a few weeks ago where everyone was roughly in agreement with it (which, incidentally, also contradicts this chart)?

One thing, though. You do not get a free pass just because you're a top player. Provide relevant information with proof (vids, data, etc.) and supporting arguments, then we might listen. All I know about this Zidane guy is that he does have a high PSR online, and his win rate with Hazama is an impressive 100%, so I'm inclined to believe you on most things. But I'm not convinced if I see something that seems to contradict what I know others ("top players" among them) have said, as well as my own experience.

For example, I trust Spark, the Haku mod here, because he consistently posts facts, data, and well thought-out arguments while also having a couple vids and achievements to his name. I can test what he says and find out it's true. So, I believe I can trust what he says. On the other hand, what I do not trust is throat-shoving. Take the time to make in-depth explanations, and I think more of us would be willing to listen.

1) Adding explanations to what? The new match-up chart? The old match-up chart didn't have any sort of explanation and it seems everyone on DL had no problem believing that. Explanations on why Mu is not top tier? lol. Did you offer an explanation on why Mu is top tier other than "You need to play a top one?" Why do top players need to offer explanations but players not proven can just say shit and it's fine?

2) I was involved with the Hazama portion of that chart. If anyone wants Hazama explanations, I can give them. If you want views on other matchups, talk to anyone else who was involved with this chart or you can talk to Stickbug about who was involved. Also, the last JP tier list as far as I know had the same Top 3 as this matchup chart so what's the problem? Arakune is slightly lower than he should be? Tell him to get less bad matchups then. Also, you do realize tier lists and whatever change right? People for the longest time thought Slayer was top tier in GG:AC. Newest tier list before SBO has him mid tier. Then again, you can just read the disclaimer and realize this chart is 100% correct.

3) That's funny cause in the beginning when I made this account, I was providing relevant information to people spewing garbage about Hazama. And you know what happened? A lot of the people arguing with me still held on to their wrong beliefs, even after providing data, facts, examples, etc. And lol at top PSR. That should in no way a factor in anything except my trolling. It's not like I I see something and i'm like "Man this guy is wrong, time to call him a stupid face". I talk to other players I know who actually either a) play the character at a high enough level for me to trust them or b) know what they're talking about in general.

4) I trust Spark and anyone on Vet Coast too. I respect their ability to post relevant data in the sea of wrong called Dustloop and not get mad about it. Alright. That's not me though.

But fine, here's your explanation. How the fuck is Mu top tier when off the bat she has bad match-ups with top 3 and other chars such as Tao and maybe Ragna? Her offensive game is average, her defensive game is average, her pokes range from average to good.

Arakune has bad matchups too but why he's considered "top" is because of what HEnaki said before: his gimmick ( curse damage ) is way too powerful. Mu doesn't have anything close to that or even anything close to "great".

EC EDIT: New JP tier list will also have WC everything in Rachel Tier.

[bbq sauce]

How about adding explanations, then? If you're the guy with all the supposed skills and knowledge necessary to determine stuff like this, then it would be appreciated if you did more than just tell us what is and what isn't without evidence to support it.

Information.

Appreciated.

On dustloop.

[smooshman]

1) Adding explanations to what? The new match-up chart? The old match-up chart didn't have any sort of explanation and it seems everyone on DL had no problem believing that. Explanations on why Mu is not top tier? lol. Did you offer an explanation on why Mu is top tier other than "You need to play a top one?" Why do top players need to offer explanations but players not proven can just say shit and it's fine?

actually everyone hated the old matchup chart.... and we hate this one...

we're kinda unpleaseable that way.

[Tin Man]

FYI, this list was made by people who play their respective characters.

The people saying that Tager rapes Noel are the same people who thought that match-up was hard in CT... stay free. Also, I guess that first list was bad too, since it listed the match-up at 5-5... and nothing has changed since then. Guess you haven't taken this thread seriously for 240 pages.

(Then again, who actually has taken this thread seriously?)

will this chart be going to the front page/OP? Also, did anyone consider grouping characters into tiers on this chart?

[Zidane]

actually everyone hated the old matchup chart.... and we hate this one...

we're kinda unpleaseable that way.

Well I can offer 2 explanations and 1 troll.

Explanation #1: Maybe you should play games that have matchup charts that please you.

Explanation #2: Maybe you should get more better ( I said more better motherfucker ) knowledge so you can realize how pleasurable this matchup chart is.

Troll: Who the fuck cares what you think?

[bakahyl]

Man this thread fucking slays me. Mu is top tier. MU IS TOP TIER.

.

Actually the list that St1ckBuG posted says that Mu is a middle tier character. Which I think that's alright.

Can anyone explain why the matchup with Arakune against mu is slightly worse than lambda? Besides the fact that you can spam the lasers more easily, lasers do little damage and don't lead into decent combo's unlike lambda's swords.

[LordSpectreX]

Lambda is just as about as bad as Mu in my opinion. 6.5/6 for each.

[Fireryda]

2) I was involved with the Hazama portion of that chart. If anyone wants Hazama explanations, I can give them.

Cool.

Can you explain why Tsubaki has a worse matchup with Hazama than Tager?

Hazama's design just seems to destroy Tager. 214D~B just shuts down his approach, a lot of his attacks are slow and can be easily reversal'd out of and as long as Hazama doesn't make a mistake it's really hard for Tager to catch him.

Haven't had much experience against Tsubaki so I can't really say much but it seems that there's just nothing to be afraid of against Tsubaki while against Tager you still have to watch out for his setups.

[Zidane]

Because if Tager actually gets in he has the ability to do damage. 2-3 Mixups and Hazama is dead. If Tsubaki actually gets in I smile and laugh because her mixup, pokes, range and damage are pathetic.

[farranpoison]

So much salt in this thread.

I could season a feast with the amount of salt in here.

[bakahyl]

Hazama related question: Why is is hazama's matchup against mu more in his favor than rachel?

Mu can't setup steins recklessly (she might be able to set up a few steins because they can be jump cancelled), but her normals and damage are still better than Rachel's. Mu actually has a dp to escape pressure sometimes, unlike rachel who only has a guard point cat chair.

[Zidane]

Cause Rachel can actually put up a zoning fight with wind + lobelias and provide some sort of semi-competent rushdown. She can also keep Hazama from coming in for free sometimes. Atleast, i'm more scared of Rachel than Tsubaki.

And when I say more scared, I only smile against Rachel instead of laugh.

[Sophisticat]

1) Adding explanations to what? The new match-up chart? The old match-up chart didn't have any sort of explanation and it seems everyone on DL had no problem believing that. Explanations on why Mu is not top tier? lol. Did you offer an explanation on why Mu is top tier other than "You need to play a top one?" Why do top players need to offer explanations but players not proven can just say shit and it's fine?

Well, you might want to say why this matchup is 100% correct for starters. You say it yourself below that this stuff can change. Was this a JP/US collaboration? Who worked on it? Why is it correct? Etc.

My Mu comment was rhetorical, though. I don't think she's top, but she's got a couple things that make her a very unfun character to play against:

- Lasers don't stop if Mu is hit.

- Setups during laser lockdown.

- Stupid DP.

- Excellent 6a/2c AA.

- Good general poke priority, though she does lose to jabbing.

- Easily keeps others out with a simple combo.

- Above average primer breaking ability, though that might just be the guy I play against. I do say 41236c special breaking 2 primers on full charge is stupid because of the mind games involved at the right distance. It's like Haku's charge shippu but without the necessary meter.

It's like CT Nu all over again for characters like Haku. If you want to play the guy in question, you can look him up on PSN: Blood-Gemini. He's French, so I can hook you up if you want. Dude is astoundingly good.

I take it Pulsr helped with the matchup? I'm cool with that, I trust his input. I just won't believe Mu is an easy character to pin down.

2) I was involved with the Hazama portion of that chart. If anyone wants Hazama explanations, I can give them. If you want views on other matchups, talk to anyone else who was involved with this chart or you can talk to Stickbug about who was involved. Also, the last JP tier list as far as I know had the same Top 3 as this matchup chart so what's the problem? Arakune is slightly lower than he should be? Tell him to get less bad matchups then. Also, you do realize tier lists and whatever change right? People for the longest time thought Slayer was top tier in GG:AC. Newest tier list before SBO has him mid tier. Then again, you can just read the disclaimer and realize this chart is 100% correct.

So who was involved in this chart? That my main contention here. I don't doubt their abilities with their own characters, but I'd like to know more about this chart's source and amount of input before knowing it's legit.

3) That's funny cause in the beginning when I made this account, I was providing relevant information to people spewing garbage about Hazama. And you know what happened? A lot of the people arguing with me still held on to their wrong beliefs, even after providing data, facts, examples, etc. And lol at top PSR. That should in no way a factor in anything except my trolling. It's not like I I see something and i'm like "Man this guy is wrong, time to call him a stupid face". I talk to other players I know who actually either a) play the character at a high enough level for me to trust them or b) know what they're talking about in general.

So? Keep giving out info you think is correct. Unless there's a subjective interpretation attached, people will come around eventually.

I only cited PSR because combined to your win% and low disconnections, I can automatically assume you're a good player.

4) I trust Spark and anyone on Vet Coast too. I respect their ability to post relevant data in the sea of wrong called Dustloop and not get mad about it. Alright. That's not me though.

I don't think it's that bad. There's just a lack of visibility on good info, which I think is a perennial problem with the FG genre. Even with a lot of research, I still come across new info I never knew even existed about FGs and then start wondering why better players get annoyed at others not knowing that kind of stuff. There's too much of a piecemeal nature to FG info.

But, a couple things can be done to minimize this, the least of which is to correct wrong information anytime we come across it, no matter how often. That's the only way we can educate others, or else the problem persists ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

EC EDIT: New JP tier list will also have WC everything in Rachel Tier.

We'll see if both the new tier list and this matchup chart, no pun intended, match up.

Information.

Appreciated.

On dustloop.

It is! ... Tiers/matchups can just get a bit subjective, so feathers can be ruffled.

Anyway, I know I appreciate it, and let it known I do. It keeps the good, delicious info coming.

[Spirit Juice]

I would trust an America match up chart for BB as much as I would an American match up chart for GG.

[Zidane]

Why the fuck you keep posting in this thread Spirit Jake. Are you #1 anything on PSN? You have no voice here. Begone, scrub. BEGONE.

[AdamNW]

Well I can offer 2 explanations and 1 troll.

Explanation #1: Maybe you should play games that have matchup charts that please you.

itt Zidane tells us all to play SSF4

Why don't we just make our own goddamn tier list since our skill will never get anywhere near that of Japan's:eng101:

[bakahyl]

My Mu comment was rhetorical, though. I don't think she's top, but she's got a couple things that make her a very unfun character to play against:

- Lasers don't stop if Mu is hit.

The lasers from her normal D's can be stopped if they are not launched before she get's hit or blocks . Her 236D on the other hand will still travel through all your steins, but it has an average start up, so she can be hit out of it.

- Setups during laser lockdown.

Can't deny that

- Stupid DP.

It does low damage, can only block 1 hit (incase of a clash) and it can barely be combo'ed into something (only in the corner on CH or rapid , but atleast it let's you set up some steins.

- Excellent 6a/2c AA.

She has exactly the same 6a as lambda as AA. Her 2c is not that much different from lambda's besides it's 1 hit and it has a bigger hitbox.

- Good general poke priority, though she does lose to jabbing.

Her C's (except 3c) doesn't come out that fast and her a and b pokes are pretty much the same as lambda's

- Easily keeps others out with a simple combo.

- Above average primer breaking ability, though that might just be the guy I play against. I do say 41236c special breaking 2 primers on full charge is stupid because of the mind games involved at the right distance. It's like Haku's charge shippu but without the necessary meter.

She can break primers decently. Her charged D's or 214d migh work and a fully charged 63214c can break 3 brimers and it can be achieved if you are stuck in her laser setup.

Overall, i don't think she is as broken as nu was.

[LordSpectreX]

Hey, Zidane, question. Why is Hazama V Hakumen even? I always thought the matchup was slightly in Hakumen's favour. What with Hazama bad at escaping corners without Jayaku, Hakumen's counters making Hazama unable to be aggressive and his ability to cut through chains, which can seriously reduce Hazama's zoning capabilities.

Also, who did the Arakune matchups? Some are a bit strange.

Litchi - 4.5, I'd say 4.0. Litchi can destory Arakune with her staff. And Arakune's lack of DP makes getting out the corners difficult. But I could live with 4.5.

Lambda - 4.5, No way. Not even 4. This matchup is easily 6.5 in her favour.

Ragna - 5.5, meh, I would think evens. Belial Edge makes it hard to zone and his corner pressure, especially with gauntlet hades is hard to deal with.

Jin - 4, I seriously cannot believe that someone actually thinks that Arakune has a hard time with Jins than Lambda. This is 4.5 or 5.

Makoto - 5.5, I'd argue 6. But 5.5 is livible.

Rachel - 6, ugh...Rachel's zoning can really mess Ara up and wind is super effective against him. 5.5. Most Rachel's I know refer Ara as one of her easier matchups.

It's just that Lambda. If it wasn't for that, I'd pretty much agree with that chart with a .5 margin of error.

[smooshman]

yo zizi

why is Jin haz 4-6?

that would make sense if it weren't for the fact that Ragna is only advantaged 5.5-4.5.