farranpoison Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 Because it's fun to talk about them either way? All joking aside, when you mean revised do you mean just to wait for when the first CS2 tier list comes out? He means the Japanese tier list that will inevitably come out soon. And we don't need any non-expert opinions, thank you. We had tons of those before and we got nowhere.
Zidane Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 I think those numbers, for Mu at least, are relatively inaccurate. But who am I? I'm not on the east coast. =/ This guy knows what's up.
SolheartStud Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 He means the Japanese tier list that will inevitably come out soon. And we don't need any non-expert opinions, thank you. We had tons of those before and we got nowhere. Fair enough.
XDest Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 Only reason I can think that people may think that it's in Tao's favor is that Tauntloop can do insane damage to Ragna who has low health.... Whats silly (to me) about Ragna V Lambda being a 4-6 is that Lambda controls the match for a while, but once Ragna gets in he's in and can do damage. Guaranteed Lambda can do the same amount but it's harder for her to set it up. Again, I feel the same about Ragna V Carl too....however....it's probably more about who has the better zoning game between the two players. Both characters can deal damage and neither have trouble keeping up with each other in terms of it so thats probably why it's 5-5. Keep note that these are my opinions based on videos, and expierience as well so take it with a grain of salt since I am by no means an expert player. Taokaka has lower health, and her BnBs (her 5B vs Ragna's 5B) are about the same damage, if you're not going for oki with Taokaka. If you are, you need to sacrifice about 500-600 damage. And Taokaka cannot get any of her health back, Ragna can get 500 damage back in the course of a round and be a normal health. If you ever think Taokaka players are going to be getting 6.8k with every single hit, that's dead wrong, getting a 6C hit has to be well placed. Both characters will usually get ~4k off random hits. Taokaka has her movement options, but Ragna's moves have pretty large hitboxes to abuse against that. Taokaka can play her normal game, but the player has to be aware of that fact every time they approach. It's not as bad as Litchi's j.C, but it's noticeable. Most of Taokaka's gatlings can be IB DP'd, including 5B/2B into 5C. She's better off just super jump canceling a 5B/5C/6A, or 214D canceling other moves to avoid that. Ragna has a really good 6A making air-to-ground a bit difficult too, you have to time and place things a little better with amount of head invincibility that move has. It's probably even, but the guy said no 0.5 changes.
St1ckBuG Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 Tier lists are very subjective, as in, the numbers are determined by certain players based on their OPINIONS. So, what I did was ask players that understand ther specific character(s) to make changed based on how they feel. A lot of changed were made from the last list, so don't even look at it anymore. The only match people seem to disagree on is the Lambda/Ragna match-up. I feel that the match-up is 6-4, Xie thinks it's slightly in her favor, and I'm pretty sure when I talked with Severin he thought it was slightly in her favor too. They might have changed their opinions since then, but in the grand scheme of things a .5 change won't accomplish much. Spirit Jake will just have to live with it.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted October 28, 2010 Posted October 28, 2010 Where is this latest match-up chart at? Ill repost the link: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?8432-BB-CS-Match-Up-Chart&p=779396&viewfull=1#post779396
worldjem7 Posted November 2, 2010 Author Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) I was wondering when this thread would be revived again. Check the first post for the latest chart. worldjem: I only ask you to use the standard two letter abbreviations for your chart, rather than the ones you normally use. I don't use the ones I use because I feel like it. If you go into "OPTION" and select "Ranking" a bunch of scores will show up. At the very end there's a match-up chart for that specific console and it lists all the characters' abbreviations. Image of the in-game chart http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa108/worldjem7/Image115.jpg Close up of the abbregiations (in case it's hard to see) http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa108/worldjem7/Image113.jpg This is what I'm basing my abbreviations on. If anything, this should be standard. Also, I changed the rating system I used. It now merely takes the average of all of a character's match-ups not including the mirror. I felt this was a more accurate way to portray character power than my old system. Edited November 2, 2010 by worldjem7
ToastCrust Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 BLIND TIER Officially better than cripple tier.
Edge Reaper Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 Damn, no rating on Valkenhayn yet...and honestly this chart makes a lot of sense to me. Though I'm really just looking at Hazama's match-ups.
zeth07 Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 So where'd these new numbers come from? They don't appear to be from the stickbug one. I won't really get into which ones I disagree with for the Bang ones (probably a few), I'm just curious about where they're from.
Spirit Juice Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 snip Except the community uses a different standard. The game's abbreviations isn't the standard for the community.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 *Checks new Match-Up Chart* Lol hakumen is the cs1 version of ct jin. Real talk, this match-up chart looks a lot more accurate, there was no way that haku v.s lambda was in his favor. I'm not THAT much of a scrub to be able to tell that. Yo Spirit Juice, how do you feel about this charts ragna match ups, accurate this time around? I'm also predicting valk to be a-b tier, but then again I haven't played him, so its purely theory.
St1ckBuG Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 FYI: -This chart was done by players who play their respective characters (for the most part). [LordKnight, Dacidbro, ZONG_one, Myself/Xie/Severin, TaoFTW, Alzarath, Zidane, XAQshinor, SpiritJuice... just to name a few] -Most opinions on match-ups between 2 players were within half a point (or 5 points depnding on the scaling). -Jin wasn't represented (the player never edited the list). -All numbers on this chart are 100% correct. The reason there's no Valk is pretty damn obvious... Have fun kids. Edit: Thanks worldjem for formatting the chart. Don't listen to Spirit, he's just a crybaby.
natearistata Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 Mu is worse for Tager than Litchi and Hazama? wot
FlyingVe Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 Mu is worse for Tager than Litchi and Hazama? wot Well, the big difference is that Mu doesn't have to commit to her projectiles. She can drop a rock and GTFO, which makes it very hard for Tager to catch her. Also, she has alot of Tager specific damage, oki, and pressure. Also, a DP. Plus jC is good. My take.
Rhiya Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 Wait, where's the Tsubaki player to bitch about how our matchups are too good? I'm no pro, but I find it hard to believe v. Lambda is only 55-45. Minimal charge time unless you like swords to the face, exceptional difficulty getting in, etc.
Edge Reaper Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 I'm not complaining on how the match-up is, but I'm just wondering; what made the Haku-men vs Hazama match-up even? That was on Haku's favor in the first list if I remember correctly.
Manta Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 Funny how opinion has changed about Mu, There was a time when us Tager players thought she was free because her projectiles were so telegraphed and slow to come out. My how gameplay experience changes things. Are the Mu matchups against Carl and Arakune in her favour for much the same reasons as Lambda?
FlyingVe Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 Pretty much. Carl is a good matchup because alot of her projectiles ignore the puppet. what made the Haku-men vs Hazama match-up even? That was on Haku's favor in the first list if I remember correctly. People learned to play Hazama. He was still a brand new character at the time of that old list.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 The main issue with haza v.s haku was the process of haku 1. cutting your chains 2. creating a void 3. sitting in the void 4. building magatama in the mean time 5. ??? 6.Profit But now haza,a's now how to very the chain use and remain unpredictable, if you even watch spark v.s madteaparty you can see how rare it is now for a haku to cut ouroboros due to d>a, making it very hard to guess when exactly a chain is coming out. Also hazama's combo damage (with jayoku houtenjin especially) is much higher then when people were first figuring him out and how to do optimal damage. Overall both characters in this match up can deal wicked damage to each other once they have the meter, it's all about who makes the mistake first that will lead to big damage.
huey253 Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) lol valkenhayn is probably A+ tier imo he probably has a 6-4 with almost everybody in the cast. EDIT: tao vs bang is even atm... it seems like alot of bang's matches are just slightly better than they should be imo... .5 difference, but its for more than a couple characters... Edited November 2, 2010 by huey253
farranpoison Posted November 2, 2010 Posted November 2, 2010 I like these numbers. Whoever did the Makoto matchups got them down pat. I've got nothing to complain about there. Also holy shit Taokaka rises up the tiers. Maybe more people will use her now, lol.
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