[CS1] Taokaka General Discussion

[KM Riku]

I FUCKING TOLD YOU GUYS

YOU FUCKING TOLD US THE OBVIOUS, NOW FUCK YOU CAKE

[Stan McJeeves]

Well, all we have left I suppose is to hope Arcsys sees how bad Tao is compared to the other characters, and hopefully give her a buff/remove a lot of these damn nerfs in the final release.

[lurch_E_bean]

Well, all we have left I suppose is to hope Arcsys sees how bad Tao is compared to the other characters, and hopefully give her a buff/remove a lot of these damn nerfs in the final release.

I agree, we're screwed.

[Stan McJeeves]

Since imminent doom is approaching, are there ANY possible uses for the "buffs" we are gonna have? The only thing I can possibly see happening is something like 9D~9> 3D~3 > new B xN> 236B x5, or possibly enders similar to CT's (with a cat2 after the new B xN). Also, going by the changes listed in the Joketests, are there any of our current BnB's that will survive, and does anyone have a rough guess on how much damage Tao could manage per combo?

On a side note, maybe we should send Arcsys hatemail in order to get Tao to be less fail

Edited November 18, 2010 by Stan McJeeves

[XDest]

CH 5C->6C and 2C->6C should get 4k+.

3C will only do damage in the corner or with meter (3C->RC->6C is possible, 3C->236236D is possible).

6A does shitty damage without taunt loop (below 3k).

So we don't.... really have a BnB over 3k anymore it seems? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Ronove]

Yep, we don't have any unless them japanese players find a new way to link stuff from her 3C without using meter.

Or simply put, right now we have 5B > 6A combos and that's it. But anyway, even though things are looking not that great I still want to be a bit confident and just hope new things will be found out as the game officially comes out. It's just a shame I probably won't have the chance to play this iteration on coin-op due to the Nesica online system (unless they find a way to use this outside of Japan). Stuck with coin-op CS1 :\

[kairless]

People are claiming 3c might be techable now. Cat spirit 2 with no wall bounce pretty much destroyed AB2 enders. No cat2loops since you cant cancel j.d moves with cat2. ARC said they are trying to make her moves easier to use and overall more of a rush down character. If that is true why would they give her Ch5c->6c back and nerf 2b? Why are they making drive attacks be used in a certain order? 9d~c -> 9d is quite helpful against those with weird hit boxes in the air. ARC's direction of tao confuses me. I seriously hope they are just testing shit like they did with ragna in the first loketest.

[KM Riku]

Probably that's the only part that the new j.B will be useful, probably you will be able to do something like this j.C->9D->j.BB->j.C->9D.

For the 3k+ combos, we probably still have 5B->6A->2D~B->22C->2D->j.2D~A (since it's not the same drive move)->9D->etc etc (I think it was ~3.5 in CSI without 2D~C). Maybe you can still taunt->214D->2D~B once even if the taunt prorate isn't 110% anymore.

But...yeah, I also don't understand what they want Tao to be now.

Edit: 5C CH->6C does wallbounce?

Edited November 18, 2010 by KM Riku

[Stan McJeeves]

Probably that's the only part that the new j.B will be useful, probably you will be able to do something like this j.C->9D->j.BB->j.C->9D.

But...yeah, I also don't understand what they want Tao to be now.

Edit: 5C CH->6C does wallbounce?

From what I've seen, and what my friends tell me, 5C CH > 6C does indeed wallbounce, so we're not totally left in the dark.

Honestly, if they wanted to change ANYTHING about Tao, I would have been ecstatic if they just gave us CT Tao back. I always preferred CT Tao because it was relatively simple to do a good combo. I think they're trying to bring CT Tao back with some nerfs, or something.

I seriously hope they are just testing shit like they did with ragna in the first loketest.

I think we're all hoping this is true. Most of my friends still say that all the changes in the Loketests are basically tests to see what would break the character, or make them godly. If that's the case, we would see things like drastic buffs/removal of nerfs on the final Tao (and pretty much all characters). Another slim chance of hope is that Arc will see how badly Tao is performing in this Loketest, and they'll buff her up for the final change.

[KM Riku]

Taokaka

- ☆DEすべてに同技乗算付加

- DE (Tao's drive, probably) has same move proration (scratch one more for Tao's grave)

Okay...they nerfed her EVEN more after the 4th loketest...I think 5B->6A->JC->2D~B/5D~B won't be so useful now...I think I want to cry.

[Stan McJeeves]

I really can't understand these nerfs. While I hardly know the other character's moves, it seems like Tao was hit the hardest by far in these tests. She wasn't even top tier to begin with, so why are they hitting Tao so much with the nerf bat? From what I've seen, top tier characters like Bang and Litchi still are still extremely powerful (Band still has lol5A, and Litchi hasn't had any noticeable nerfs). Not to mention, Jin looks like he's going to be top tier.

As I already said about 4 times, I suppose now is the time to pray to the gaming gods to have mercy on Tao.

[zeech]

I think we're all hoping this is true. Most of my friends still say that all the changes in the Loketests are basically tests to see what would break the character, or make them godly. If that's the case, we would see things like drastic buffs/removal of nerfs on the final Tao (and pretty much all characters). Another slim chance of hope is that Arc will see how badly Tao is performing in this Loketest, and they'll buff her up for the final change.

Isnt that what Rachel players were saying during the BBCS loketests? -_-;

[Silfer]

Tsujikawa must have pissed off a lot of people at SBO XD...Hope they change their minds, the really seem to have gone overboard with this. The proration nerf of the D moves is totally uncalled for.

[Itzwiitard]

Hey guys i know i said lets have faith in tao, but i got an idea for aks to do with her, jus throw her off the damn cliff, they have destroyed her in most ways i can see, its hurtin inside with all these buffs,

[soujiro seta]

I'll tell you guys what's happening to toa. Theoretically, going by archetypes, zoners and speedsters should be on the lower end of the damage scale in FGs. Rushdown in the middle, and the bulkier/slower to advance characters on the top.

Tager, in CS1, averages around 2.8-3.6K. In CS2 he hasn't gotten any damage nerfs. Infact his 2.8-3.6k comes from anywhere on the screen. By reducing every characters midscreen damage, tagers 2.8-3.6k anywhere starts to look huge. Bang, since 623B doesn't wallbounce, will average 1.8-2k midscreen. Now when tager gets his hands on you, you really feel it. I mean 2.8-3.6k anywhere on screen in CS2 is going to be like tauntloop damage, lol.

If in CS2 tao were getting 3k combos, then tager, and everyone else averaging 2-2.5k midscreen would be rendered almost useless. Lets not forget that tao is also the fastest character in the game, and has some of the best normals as well. With that much speed/mobility/runaway, and with normals that good....you're going to get in more hits than your opponent. Her damage and mobility are troublesome for everyone, especially in her matchups vs carl/tager. She dances around them, and is averaging 3.2k without taunt, and over 4k with taunt. I play carl and he has like a 1 frame window to catch her, all the while she can get in when ever she wants, easily get 3.2k, get out, get in again, this time 3.6k, get out,....He has to get lucky or take a huge risk to trap her, and when he did he had to kill her in 1 go. Whereas she could get in and deal big damage whenever she wanted, and get out for free. She should be able to get in easily, but dealing big damage so easily...and easily escaping at will when she wanted with no repercussions? Nah, that wasn't fair to the other characters, especially, and I mean especially the slower characters.

Everyone is getting nerfs, and in the current system tao dealing over 3k anywhere would be absurd. She should not be averaging the same damage as, or getting more than, tager/carl/hakumen. She still has her speed, and normals. She will still dance around her opponents and get more hits in. Tao in japan is top tier, and her damage is a big part of why. Now you will have to get more hits in, which fits her character type, to win. It's the same thing that happened to lambda. Nu mains cried about how they can't get 4k from fullscreen anymore, not realizing that a zoner shouldn't deal that much from full screen. Hence why hazama's options have been limited as well. Haku is going through something similar as well. In CS1 he's a good zoner, safe pokes even on IB, high damage, and when you finally get in he can counter you with IB 2/4/6D or j.D for big damage as well? nah that was too much, hence he can't combo off counters anymore.

Don't worry, tao will still be good

[KM Riku]

You didn't really read/understand Tao changes or impressions, did you? The prove of that is things you said like "She stilll has has speed, normals and still dance around her opponents". She CAN'T dance arround her opponents like she could anymore, they changed her drive to a point that if you don't do a follow up while using drive (this means using ~A/B/C/6 cancel), she will stop mid air and fall to the ground and her drive has more recovery now...that means she doesn't have crazy mobility anti-Lambda/Tager now. The real problem about the combos is not the damage, we are pretty aware that everybody in the game had damage nerf, the problem is that she doesn't have any useful laucher anymore since 3C doesn't cancel in drive and now her drive has same move proration, making combos like 5B->6A->JC->2D~B no good anymore. They even nerfed her 6A that wasn't that great as anti-air (not great as Ragna's 6A for example) in the first place.

They didn't nerf only her damage or combo, they nerfed her mobility AND she still has a pretty weak defense (9,5k HP, 4 primes, no reversal, they nerfed her CA that was one of the only defense option she had). Not only that, they didn't gave ANY useful buff to her, you can read all loketest topics that you won't see one real buff that isn't useless shit, only nerf after nerf (pretty heavy nerfs). Also if you read the character impressions, the guy says things like "endangered species" and "you could see the despair in the eyes of Tao players"...those are pretty heavy things to say about a character.

Don't try to comment about other characters if you don't even understand what happened to it.

[Silfer]

Wait, they left tao's health at 9.5k?? I thought they increased it...

[Stan McJeeves]

Riku was a bit harsh in the above explanation, but I can understand why. I am (and I'm pretty sure every Tao player) seriously upset and angered by these changes. I could have understood damage reductions, and I could understand removing tauntloop, but Arc literally went out of their way to screw Tao over. They removed our 3C, they wrecked Tao's drive, and they even went to the point of tearing apart some of the gimmicks we had, such as AB2 combos, and canceling cat2 with a drive. Point being, Tao has taken some heavy hits, and we weren't given anything in return, aside from the new B, which hardly makes up for these changes.

What made it even more irritating for Tao players is that characters like Bang never had their over powered moves taken away (5A is still godly, as an example). What does Tao have left? Nothing at all. We lost the tauntloop, we lost 3C, we lost 6C to a certain extent, we lost cat2 loop, we lost AB2 combos, our drives got a MAJOR nerf (both in damage, and as Riku pointed out, usefulness), and the list goes on and on. We are being literally left for dead here, as we were given nothing to balance out the changes.

Last I checked, Loketest was supposed to BALANCE things. Meaning, Top tier characters (like Litchi and Bang) would get their damage toned down, and low tier characters (like Rachael) would get a damage buff. So far, Tao hasn't seen any BALANCES at all, we've only been whacked time after time with the nerf bat for things that weren't even over powered at all. Honestly, Tao would have been perfectly fine if they did something like this:

Remove tauntloop

Add new B

Add about 500 more HP

Tone down overall damage by whatever amount was needed

The only thing I'm seeing from Tao's changes is, "We don't like Tao, so we're gonna nerf her down to loltier". I'm pretty sure that NOT A SINGLE character has received this many nerfs and this few buffs in the Loketests.

EDIT: I think there was a note about Tao's HP being increased slightly in the first Loketest.

[Silfer]

Her health is probably back on CT level. I dont understand why would they let bang keep his 5A...but wateva....fun fact: impressions from the loketest state that litchi is actually quite strong XD...I would laugh my ass off if they make so many changes only to have everything remain the same way it was before XD

[KM Riku]

Her HP is still 9,5k.The HP buff was a non-confirmed change. Also her drive cancels needed more recovery anyway, they were away too safe in CS1.

Edited November 18, 2010 by KM Riku

[Ronove]

I understand Hawkeye's point of view regarding the fact that Tao really has dumb ways to easily get in and out and pretty much capitalize as much as she wants while avoid ugly shit (doesn't really happen equally in all of the matchups but generally that's how she plays, hit and run), but still some of these changes are a bit way too much. I'm perfectly fine with taunt loop and other high damage stuff being taken out (AB2 combos were cool though, wish they would find a way to keep them), and I'm fine if they make her drive cancels a little less safe to use, but... was it really necessary to nerf her 3C like that? To not even allow it to link a drive move? That's a serious blow, which makes me question how japanese players will cope with it and how they'll be able to find new stuff to combo from. It's not like Tao has plenty of routes, in neutral situation when being on ground you either go for 5B > 6A when you're in range, or go for 5B > 3C. Other routes like 5B > 5C > etc 5B > 2B > etc usually occur during a blockstring (when it's too late to hitconfirm into a 6A or 3C). Oh yeah, they restored the CH 5C > 6C route but you can't expect that setup to occur frequently unless the opponent is mashing or unless you have amazing ground footsies.

Which is probably why a lot (if not all) of the Tao players feel a bit desperate. Although we don't know if all these nerfs will actually make it to the final coin-op version, some of them are a little too harsh and practically kill a lot of her basic and standard options she's always had. So yeah, while I understand the attempt in wanting to make the character less autopilot/free-out-of-jail at the same time overdoing it is just going to alienate it too much from its userbase.

But again, I think we're still overracting at this and until the official version is out and until we see some japanese pros findind out new shit I won't be pulling my hair yet (but still keep fingers crossed).

Edited November 18, 2010 by Ronove

[XDest]

Probably that's the only part that the new j.B will be useful, probably you will be able to do something like this j.C->9D->j.BB->j.C->9D.

For the 3k+ combos, we probably still have 5B->6A->2D~B->22C->2D->j.2D~A (since it's not the same drive move)->9D->etc etc (I think it was ~3.5 in CSI without 2D~C). Maybe you can still taunt->214D->2D~B once even if the taunt prorate isn't 110% anymore.

But...yeah, I also don't understand what they want Tao to be now.

Edit: 5C CH->6C does wallbounce?

Even that has j.2D twice in it. The first one is after the 6A.

[KM Riku]

Even that has j.2D twice in it. The first one is after the 6A.

Yeah...I posted that before I knew the Drive same move proration nerf...

Well, let's see the good side...probably we won't have any CS1 Bang or Litchi in CS2...at least I hope so.

[soujiro seta]

I hope you guys don't think I'm here to cause trouble. I actually tried to calm you down a bit, and instill some hope. I only commented on her mobility and damage nerfs, and nothing else cause I don't use her to really understand how those other nerfs affect her overall game.

The same move proration on drives was obviously done to reduce her damage.

She CAN'T dance arround her opponents like she could anymore, they changed her drive to a point that if you don't do a follow up while using drive (this means using ~A/B/C/6 cancel), she will stop mid air and fall to the ground and her drive has more recovery now...that means she doesn't have crazy mobility anti-Lambda/Tager now.

They probably did that so that taos don't use her drive as a poke too much. You can AA it, but it can be hard. I'm not talking about taos who just mindlessly spam drive, I can AA those players blindfolded. It's also part of the reason why she is so good against lambda, tager, and tsubaki to some degree. Poking/feinting smartly with her drive to fish for hits really gives them trouble. As you said, they don't want it to be "anti-Lambda/tager" anymore, so they nerfed it. It's also more punishable now, so that it's not the go to tool for runaway anymore. Taos runaway is pretty strong though especially against the slower characters.

It's the same as carl's 8D. Every other character doesn't have a problem with it being unblockabe, but it raped tager so they nerfed it. 8D became blockable mainly because of tager alone since he can't air dash.

The real problem about the combos is not the damage, we are pretty aware that everybody in the game had damage nerf, the problem is that she doesn't have any useful laucher anymore since 3C doesn't cancel in drive and now her drive has same move proration, making combos like 5B->6A->JC->2D~B no good anymore.

Most characters 3Cs are techable. Carl doesn't have his summon combo anymore, 2A 2B 3C 22D IAD j.2C allecan. We have to find something new to compensate.

They didn't nerf only her damage or combo, they nerfed her mobility AND she still has a pretty weak defense (9,5k HP, 4 primes, no reversal, they nerfed her CA that was one of the only defense option she had). Not only that, they didn't gave ANY useful buff to her, you can read all loketest topics that you won't see one real buff that isn't useless shit, only nerf after nerf (pretty heavy nerfs). Also if you read the character impressions, the guy says things like "endangered species" and "you could see the despair in the eyes of Tao players"...those are pretty heavy things to say about a character.

Carl is very similar to tao as well (9.5k hp, and no reserval). Ofcourse they are 2 different characters with their individual strenghts and weaknesses.

There is no way to know how everything will turn out until the japanese get their hands on the final product. During the CS loketest litchi mains said the changes during the loketest make her low tier. Well, look how she turned out.

Everything in the loketest isn't final. My point is don't put too much emphasis on "how you think they've destroyed her current gameplay" or "how how she'll be low tier", but rather on how her new game plan will be like with the current changes.

Edited November 19, 2010 by soujiro seta

[KM Riku]

Are you seriously using a comparison between Carl and Tao as an argument in every quote?

It's not like Tao lost one or two possibility of combo, she lost every useful combo starter and she didn't receive a buff like most of characters that allow her to do new combos. The same move proration thing doesn't only reduce her damage, but also has the possibilty of combos like 5B->6A->JC->2D~B not being worth of using.

They nerfed her drive like this because she had a strong runaway, that's true and it had to be nerfed. However, it's obvious they did that in the wrong away.

I ask myself as a Tao player...where's the fun in playing a Tao like this? I don't really care if Tao is bottom tier or not, even in other fighting games low tiers are fun to use, the same way some Bang/Hakumen/Tager players found fun to play them even if they were low tier...but with those changes she doesn't look like the fun Tao she was in CT/CS. What will Tao play now? Spamming 5C hoping to get a counter hit? Not being able to use her mobility anymore to get close and start using moves like j.C and 5C to zone? I'm not worried what tier Tao will be, I'm worried how Tao will play now. They want Tao to be simplier, but I don't fucking care about that...I liked a complicated yet fun Tao she was before.

But like you said, those changes aren't final. I still have some hope for Tao...but I can't say I'm positive about that.