A.X.I.S. Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 talk about how easy mode this match gotten in CS. general stuff: tager's damage got nerfed and gadget is not so useful here. ragna got a damage buff and insane meter gain! ragna should be able to keep the momentum going once he starts. but tager's 720 will still kill you at 50%. 6-4 unless stated otherwise, i don't care what that CS match up chart says! this match is still ass. p.s. ragna's pressure is safer(?)
Zero000 Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 Matchup is still very very tense as before. Still in Ragna's favor since he can space and zone ragna should be able to keep the momentum going once he starts. This is a very bad idea and it's asking for a 720, FC, spark ball thing, 360, etc etc etc. Rushing down Tager non isn't a very good idea, but applying pressure is. The matchup is exactly the same, except you have to now deal with Gadget Finger, but he has really good ways to get out. Ragna can jump, backdash, block just like everybody else, but he also can DP (rapid if necessary).
Prototype909 Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 CH 2C fishing is even more effective than before. Abuse it.
VR-Raiden Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Having only played CS once, I don't have much to add atm. I will just note that CH BE combos into 5A on Tager if it hits him standing, in case people overlooked that in other threads. Make of it what you will. The time I did play against a Tager (he wasn't too capable) I did BE once right as he started an Atomic Collider, and it actually hit him out of it. The beginning part of BE, where he just starts picking up his sword. Only happened once though, can't say if it's any use without testing it further.
FlyingVe Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Atomic collider has some invulnerability, but not much, and not immediately (like frame 11 I think). So you can still lord over Tager from the air. Watch out for 2C though, it got a big buff, and hurts big time. Also, because of his hitbox, some combos get really finicky in the corner like in CT. Watch for when you see the combo going awry so you don't wiff and give a Tager free command grab. Lastly, 5A wiffs on crouching Tager now...
Zero000 Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Lastly, 5A wiffs on crouching Tager now... Which sets up for funnier rushdown. If you know they aren't mashing 720 or some dumb shit, start whiffing 5a and then throw them, you usually get a X throw or they get really caught off guard
A.X.I.S. Posted March 31, 2010 Author Posted March 31, 2010 Atomic collider has some invulnerability, but not much, and not immediately (like frame 11 I think). So you can still lord over Tager from the air. Watch out for 2C though, it got a big buff, and hurts big time. Also, because of his hitbox, some combos get really finicky in the corner like in CT. Watch for when you see the combo going awry so you don't wiff and give a Tager free command grab. Lastly, 5A wiffs on crouching Tager now... 7~16 frame invul says the frame data it grabs on frame 17.
FlyingVe Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Even better, that means jB still beats collider. 2C though... Damn. Actually that's true of both characters, be scared of Tager's 2C and abuse yours.
ShinsoBEAM Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 7~16 frame invul says the frame data it grabs on frame 17. So far its been beating out most meaty shit our ragna has thrown the few times I used it, so maybe the throw is calculated before the any hits are *hopeful. But for AA against ragna im still relying mostly on 2A, and 2C. While Gadget isn't as good on ragna as it is against others Gadget RC,5D still puts on a hefty 7 seconds of magnetize and a good mixup. Plus ID combos only do like ~2k damage, which unless Im wrong was less than they did in CT.
A.X.I.S. Posted March 31, 2010 Author Posted March 31, 2010 So far its been beating out most meaty shit our ragna has thrown the few times I used it, so maybe the throw is calculated before the any hits are *hopeful. But for AA against ragna im still relying mostly on 2A, and 2C. While Gadget isn't as good on ragna as it is against others Gadget RC,5D still puts on a hefty 7 seconds of magnetize and a good mixup. Plus ID combos only do like ~2k damage, which unless Im wrong was less than they did in CT. um ID combo's can break 3k and give him 30+ meter. don't get hit by ID. period. although i must say 2A should stuff a lot of rag's shit now.
ShinsoBEAM Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 um ID combo's can break 3k and give him 30+ meter. don't get hit by ID. period. although i must say 2A should stuff a lot of rag's shit now. Ahh I only saw them going over 3k when he RCed I wasn't looking at how much meter he got . I agree Tager 2A seems even better in this match hell all matches than before.
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 The problem with not getting hit by ID ever is your mixup becomes pretty much literally non-existant in that theology. I would say get hit by ID rarely, so they still feel called to use it now and then and also you don't lose your offense, and also you get to block and punish their rapid whatevah To clarify, I don't mean literally intend to get hit by it :8/:
A.X.I.S. Posted March 31, 2010 Author Posted March 31, 2010 The problem with not getting hit by ID ever is your mixup becomes pretty much literally non-existant in that theology. I would say get hit by ID rarely, so they still feel called to use it now and then and also you don't lose your offense, and also you get to block and punish their rapid whatevah To clarify, I don't mean literally intend to get hit by it :8/: i know what you mean, sometimes its good to assume ragna won't use it...but he will...and mashing it is so annoying.
Yggjrasil Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 If you get caught by Gadget Finger, DO NOT ID. Just backdash and you'll be fine from Tager's mix-ups.
VR-Raiden Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 If you get caught by Gadget Finger, DO NOT ID. Just backdash and you'll be fine from Tager's mix-ups. Eh...I know I've seen backdash punished plenty of times in vids. Ragna's backdash has pretty pathetic invul frames. I don't remember exactly what, some Tager player enlighten us why backdash isn't 100% safe way of escaping. It is still an option though, escapes 360 and Atomic collider.
A.X.I.S. Posted April 1, 2010 Author Posted April 1, 2010 Eh...I know I've seen backdash punished plenty of times in vids. Ragna's backdash has pretty pathetic invul frames. I don't remember exactly what, some Tager player enlighten us why backdash isn't 100% safe way of escaping. It is still an option though, escapes 360 and Atomic collider. from what the tager boards saying we shouldn't gadget...period. on that note i'm confident we can poke you out of backdash, i theorized 5D/5C will catch you out of it. anyone wanna test or verify it? fuuucking hate theory fighter...so out of here.
VR-Raiden Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 from what the tager boards saying we shouldn't gadget...period Hah! Didn't expect that. I think it might have been 6A that was catching the backdash...can't remember what vid I saw it in :/
A.X.I.S. Posted April 1, 2010 Author Posted April 1, 2010 Hah! Didn't expect that. I think it might have been 6A that was catching the backdash...can't remember what vid I saw it in :/ gadget puts you in a spot we don't want you in with a DP that we don't want you to use against a person who can corner us in a combo. 6A would beat everyone's back dash but tager's and lambda's.
Zero000 Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 Hey, if you get gadget fingered, you can gold burst. Keep this in mind And mashing backdash after gadget finger, shrug, i guess it's a good idea. It's called a mixup for a reason, mix it up. Jump, backdash, attack, DP, gold burst, blood kain, block DP cannot break 3000 damage, at most it's like 2700. But if you do the double BE combo, he builds a shit ton of meter for landing a DP. The matchup is hard for Tager because Ragna has crazy range with 5b and if Tager tries to get funny, Ragna has a DP. Mixups become useless since Tager's overhead and D moves are so telegraphed that you can just DP them on reaction. But beware, Tager can cancel one of his D moves into the auto guard charge up move once he realizes that you're DP every blockstring.
Asdferty Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 Just for clarification backdash out of gadget will get caught by 5c, and the tager will probably follow-up with 6a collider after that. Gadget is a silly thing versus ragna, ID beats tager's backdash as well as everything but block/volt charge, but with 50% it's a get out of jail free card and puts the flow of the fight back into ragna's hands. As for other matchup stuff, watch out for tagers that just slow get-up 2c after they are knocked down, just 3c~ bnb them if they try this. You really don't want to get A buster'd, cause he can 5b 4d as a ragna specific that will do solid damage and magnetize you, so always play it safe. If you have a 720 masher the most common time they will mash is if you air dash in, j.C j.D, they will be mashing that 720 on your way down. Answer with j.GH after the j.D. Another really safe option out of gadget finger (if they ever do it) is blood kain, beats the same things as ID, but with a lot more punishment. Otherwise I would say find out about tager's new tech punishes, galileo trap is nasty if you tech wrong etc. From neutral positions I find just staying away and putting pressure on with spaced 5b 5c's seems to work the best, possible dead spikes as followups. If they land follow up with hell's fang, or if you have 50% rapid the first hell's hit into 6c and go for a double berial combo to get your heat just about back and send him across the stage.
Zero000 Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 5b INTO 5c isn't the greatest idea. I'm still working on that myself, 5c is just a shitty move to use in block strings, -8 on block. Just use 5b. I only use 5c to punish something that tager did since I think 5c has a longer range then 5b, plus i think you get more counter frames to work with. I don't know what these numbers under CH mean, but there are a hell alot more of them when you use CH 5c then CH 5b
Prototype909 Posted April 3, 2010 Posted April 3, 2010 A good idea against Tager is to just keep your blockstrings short, and don't get greedy. Knowing when to back off or reset your pressure is something that is crucial. Try not to get into a position where you throw out 5C and then are forced to commit to something. How does Ragna fair in the air in this matchup? Obviously buffed AT means that jump-ins are no longer free, but is AT really something we have to watch out for now? And of course, does Ragna have anything new/changed that allows him easier methods of beating Tager's backdash?
Spirit Juice Posted April 3, 2010 Posted April 3, 2010 2C is a bigger threat than AT. AA AT requires some yomi/reading. Jumping in on Tager is pretty much the same. 5B has one more active frame than it did in CT. It can actually catch Tager during a backdash, providing it wasn't done early.
SmilingBison Posted August 1, 2010 Posted August 1, 2010 I'm having a lot of trouble with a super spammy tager and was hoping to get some tips. Essentially all this tager does is spam 2D or sledges, and I mean over and over and over as soon as I try and start any kind pressure. He repeats the spam until he connects and then hits his BnB for about a third of Ragna's life, the problem I have is since these moves seem to have super armor I can't ever land a single hit on him when he is spamming, I sometimes manage to be in a position to lands hell's fang and it stop the sledge but it's rare. I've tried baiting it out and then punishing, but during a punish since he doesn't care about damage since he has so much health he is just spinning 360's hoping for a throw counter, which he tends to get a lot. I'm brand new to the game and it's mechanics but this matchup (or more specifically his playstyle) just aggravates me to no end since it seems he just has to get lucky a few times vs me having to put in a ton of work to try and win. I've tried getting in early landing a quick BnB and then running the whole match, but it seems at some point I wind up with NP and then if tager catches me I'm really screwed, I've also tried to maintain some decent pressure on him with quick j.C's and 6B 3C high low mixups but like I said eventually his spam gets it's hands on me and that's usually the end of it. I guess I'm essentially looking for ways to punish the repeated spam he does to break the super armor, so any tips for a new player on how to stop some BS nonsense that would definitely never work against anybody with even a little skill?
ZhePrime Posted August 1, 2010 Posted August 1, 2010 I'm having a lot of trouble with a super spammy tager and was hoping to get some tips. Essentially all this tager does is spam 2D or sledges, and I mean over and over and over as soon as I try and start any kind pressure. Infernal Divider. Stay out of SledgeB and 2D range and punish on whiff. He repeats the spam until he connects and then hits his BnB for about a third of Ragna's life, the problem I have is since these moves seem to have super armor I can't ever land a single hit on him when he is spamming, he doesn't care about damage since he has so much health he is just spinning 360's hoping for a throw counter, which he tends to get a lot. 2D doesn't have super armor and Sledge only protects him from projectiles (only projectile Ragna has is Dead Spike). During his "pressure", don't barrier block if you intend to punish, since it increases your block stun. I'm brand new to the game and it's mechanics but this matchup (or more specifically his playstyle) just aggravates me to no end since it seems he just has to get lucky a few times vs me having to put in a ton of work to try and win. Tager feeds on mistakes, once you stop making mistakes and learn the matchup, it gets A LOT harder for Tager to do anything.
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