BBCS Character Analysis

[A.X.I.S.]

I have to go with Ladon on this 5C is unsafe as hell and any follow up you try that's not 2C is unsafe as hell.

only thing you can do to make 5C safe is not using it.

[smooshman]

If you let it cancel itself, you can cancel to special at any time, giving you the option of an extremely late GH (would be odd, but available), HF, or even DP punish if they try to do stuff. It's very safe.

this is called "refuge in audacity" meaning you do something so bold/stupid no one is expecting it, it works once (maybe twice on scrubs). Don't rely on it... ever.

[zeth07]

Just to give some perspective:

5C's on Block:

Rachel = -15

Lambda = -14 (-8)

Taokaka = -13

Bang = -10

Litchi = -9

Tsubaki = -9

Hazama = -9

Ragna = -8

Noel = -7

Jin = -6

Arakune = -4

Carl = -4

Tager = -3

Hakumen = -3

(pretty sure they are the right numbers for everyone)

So I guess what each person determines as "safe" might be different. You would have to take into consideration the range + followups + on block frames.

Hypothetically speaking, if a move has good range and not horrendous frames it could be considered "safe" even on block, just because the opponent has to make up ground or having a move that can do that. Instead of just saying it is blocked at point blank range and easier to punish. So whether or not it puts you in a positive situation (frames or actual spacing), might be a moot point when calling a move safe or not. And that is not even considering the possible follow-ups.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, just saying there are a lot of things to consider when calling a move "safe", especially when people might think of that term differently.

An easy answer would be anything in - frames or not 0/+ on block means it isn't "safe".

[-Ladon-]

snip

CS numbers are out? where is this frame data

[Spirit Juice]

5C is safe on block, but awful on whiff. Still, your options after max range 5C in block strings is limited unless you're in 2C range.

[zeth07]

CS numbers are out? where is this frame data

BB:CS Mook has all the frame data. Pretty sure people are working on translating it.

[Skye]

BB:CS Mook has all the frame data. Pretty sure people are working on translating it.

I'd like to help with that.

Can I get a link?

[zeth07]

I'd like to help with that.

Can I get a link?

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?p=568952

They said it was 80% done, so I'm not sure if they still need people but I guess you can contact them.

EDIT: lol I should have just said look below this thread.

[Skye]

Cool, I just want to tinker with the frame data.

[Henaki]

5C is safe on block, but awful on whiff. Still, your options after max range 5C in block strings is limited unless you're in 2C range.

-8 is situationally safe, it's a really dumb argument regardless.

Most characters will not have a way to punish a 5C assuming it was chained from 5B at it's max range. But you're at a frame disadvantage so you will lose a button pressing war unless you do something really dumb and unsafe.

Basically committing to 5C ends your blockstring.

[CrimsonDisaster]

5C is safe on block, but awful on whiff. Still, your options after max range 5C in block strings is limited unless you're in 2C range.

So why are you guys talking about blockstrings when the entire 5C discussion is about 5C being used as a long range poke?

All the OMG THIS MOVE STOPS YOUR BLOCKSTRING noise from like 3-4 different posters is kinda pointless.

[Spirit Juice]

So why are you guys talking about blockstrings when the entire 5C discussion is about 5C being used as a long range poke?

All the OMG THIS MOVE STOPS YOUR BLOCKSTRING noise from like 3-4 different posters is kinda pointless.

I was just adding to the discussion since there was misinformation being spread. I'm not even sure when or how the discussion even came to that, considering the conversation started with the damage output of Ragna at max range.

[-Ladon-]

So why are you guys talking about blockstrings when the entire 5C discussion is about 5C being used as a long range poke?

All the OMG THIS MOVE STOPS YOUR BLOCKSTRING noise from like 3-4 different posters is kinda pointless.

the discussion was started when people(a certain bang) questioned why 5C wasn't safe when it can be canceled then it was about blockstrings and why 5C isn't reliably canceled

the point is moot anyway, majority of the time 5b-5c-hf combo will put you at the position you started so even though it does a decent amount of damage, it still keeps people out of ragna's big damage range, specifically 3C range.

[Nodelic2]

Thanks Spirit Juice! I think you're pretty close for Noel, nothing I would personally add.

[CakeWasBannedd]

For Taokaka, her air to ground is actually pretty amazing. j.B has a big hitbox and if it hits you can go right into taunt loop.

[Dacidbro]

the discussion was started when people(a certain bang) questioned why 5C wasn't safe when it can be canceled then it was about blockstrings and why 5C isn't reliably canceled

the point is moot anyway, majority of the time 5b-5c-hf combo will put you at the position you started so even though it does a decent amount of damage, it still keeps people out of ragna's big damage range, specifically 3C range.

Hey, hi

5C is safe. Ending your blockstring is not unsafe, and you certainly aren't going to care if your blockstring ended whilst poking.

People read INFINITELY too much into static difference on gatling-able moves.

[-Ladon-]

Hey, hi

5C is safe. Ending your blockstring is not unsafe, and you certainly aren't going to care if your blockstring ended whilst poking.

People read INFINITELY too much into static difference on gatling-able moves.

it's like you don't read

[SuperKawaiiDesu]

Seems like jin can get EXCELLENT damage in the corner with 623D and its increased "comboability"?, You may want to look into that! :o

oh whoops sorry didnt read those earlier posts ;-;

[tokyobassist]

I actually have a question. Is there any benefits/uses for Noel CT 5C being a "new" move in her CS Drive mixups? I managed to find some good use for it against crossups from characters like Tao and some Ragna's move (abeit under strict timing)

[Whiteboywilly]

Great post Scott. I agree with much of this and its very insightful.

[Dacidbro]

it's like you don't read

It's like you're on the internet, posting things that aren't right like they are, and anyone who is against you doesn't read

I dunno, I can do the same thing, it doesn't make yours or my argument any more right.

Fact of the matter is, 5C is not only not unsafe, but stuns your opponent so that you can do things. You're unbelievably stupid if you can really insist that 5C, the base of Ragna's gatlings, is unsafe. Truthfully. It has -8 static difference, which doesn't actually mean anything, because you will literally always gatling it unless you're deliberately baiting something, or you have some other trick up your sleeve. And the things that gatling from it gating to other things, and some of those gatling again. That's actually what most people call mix up, not unsafe.

[koun]

Ty SJ

[-Ladon-]

Fact of the matter is, 5C is not only not unsafe, but stuns your opponent so that you can do things. You're unbelievably stupid if you can really insist that 5C, the base of Ragna's gatlings, is unsafe. Truthfully. It has -8 static difference, which doesn't actually mean anything, because you will literally always gatling it unless you're deliberately baiting something, or you have some other trick up your sleeve. And the things that gatling from it gating to other things, and some of those gatling again. That's actually what most people call mix up, not unsafe.

the topic was on POKING with it, in which ragna is not safe POKING with it. IAD, guardpoints, and IB can catch it trying to use it at max range. -8 ON BLOCK is not a reliable way to poke at all. The gatlings are awful for poking and in truth can put you in a worse position than trying to poke with it. what mixup? the most you can do is 2C to cover yourself from getting punished, going any deeper after 5c is never safe. Oh i forgot, you could always do a meterless GH or 2D and hope they're not blocking right, what a crazy mixup

but hey, get all defensive about a character you clearly lack knowledge about and try to make it sound like you all of a sudden know his whole game plan, it's not like you're telling us to do anything silly though, like ID after a 5c poke.

oh god I just noticed "the base of ragna's gatlings" HAHAHAHAHA

[g.Bauer]

Good read.

Thank you SJ.

[ZhaneBX]

Great and interesting thread!

Kinda disappointed by Tsubaki's counterproductive design, but I think I'll still main her if CS ever comes to a European 360

From what I've seen and read, I'm more interested in all 3 new CS characters than in anyone in CT