pktazn Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 . It seems that the black Tsubaki lost this so called "light", which is why she was so vulnerable to mind control. I wonder what is this, her love? Her conviction that she's doing the right thing? Nothing fits perfectly. YAY TSUBAKI TALK. No for serious, I think the change in Tsubaki is that she has no idea what she wants to do. In her true ending for her story, she's questioning what she should do and why she's fighting but is unable to come up with any answers which is when the Imperator comes by. I think her going "blind" is also symbolic as in she can't see what she wants to do. @Ehecatl: The only thing I don't agree about your theory is that Tsubaki just SUDDENLY became jealous of Noel. In her bad end, she admits that she's always been jealous of her which didn't help when Hazama told her about what happened... or was supposed to happen. Those feelings have always been there he just used them.
Black Onslaught Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 Hazama manipulates Tsubaki to an absurd degree in CS, twisting around her feelings of jealousy into outright hatred towards Noel taking her place in the world. Izayoi changing color represents Tsubaki giving in to this hatred, and having lost her "sight" as to what is true in the world from what's been talked about in CS.
ChrisX Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 Okay, I probably would be repeating a theory, but... Litchi ignored Arakune's request for her to stop. That has been used as a weapon for most Litchi haters (especially in GameFAQS), saying that the act make her look unsympathetic. Do you think it's true? Or is it better to make it look like Litchi was telling Arakune not to give up hope and wait a little longer, since she know there IS a cure? (It's what I'd like to believe) Also, most people already hoped that Bang will be the one rescuing her. But... so far, Litchi hasn't been the type to say "Please save me". Is it right to call her a damsel in distress in terms of mentality? She's not being physically held hostage against her will, but I think her mind is screaming that she needs help, but none would give her...
pktazn Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 How does ignoring a request make her unsympathetic? :o But I don't really think there are answers for your questions since they're all kinda opinion based... Personally, I feel that she wants to believe that there is a cure and find it, no matter the cost. She is a doctor after all... Litchi is stubborn and independent iirc so it might be hard for her to outright as for help. I still like her as a character though. EDIT: Ignore my "no answers for you questions statement", this is the theory/speculation thread. I apologize OTL I think (it's on auto so they're still talking ) I'm almost done with her story so I'll be able to give my opinion on it in a bit. I'll just edit this post... again.
makeamidget Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 How does ignoring a request make her unsympathetic? Completely ignoring the part where she's pretty crazy here. (Or at least doing crazy thing all in the name of something resembling love(albeit an ultimate obsessed variety) If you were trying to help someone that you love, would you listen to that request? I sure as hell wouldn't. Now, I wouldn't go quite as far as her, but it is pretty understandable and believable(character-wise) why she would do this. Does this make her unsympathetic? I don't think so. Does this make her a horrible human being... Maybe...? But we don't exactly know for certain how messed up in the head she is, or how bad Hazama trolled her to get her there.
p-kun Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 ^^ Agreed. Why should she listen to Arakune anyway? I'm always under impression that whatever Litchi does, she does it for herself and not for him. She WANTS to save Arakune, who cares if he doesn't want to be saved. The fact that Arakune still can manage to be sane for several minutes was enough to rekindle the hope in her. It's like you have terminally ill love who shows hope that he might be savable even with a minuscule chance, even if it means prolonging/adding his suffering. Not because he wants it (Arakune already asked to be killed), but because you cannot bear to part. Many people cannot turn off the life support of their beloved because there "might" be improvement in medics in the future to save their beloved. It's the way Litchi is.
ClubAmerican Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 Litchi ignored Arakune's request for her to stop. That has been used as a weapon for most Litchi haters (especially in GameFAQS), saying that the act make her look unsympathetic.(It's what I'd like to believe) Wait, wait. People hate litchi because there is the possibility that she has shaky morals? Why would this be a reason to not like a character? So I'm guessing they all hate Hazama? and Ragna, Jin, Arakune, Nu, and most of the cast? If anything her inability to let go of her love is just part of her personality, it actually makes the situation more interesting story-wise and makes her easily influenced by the villains, adding more to the story itself.
mAc Chaos Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 I don't see why it's so wrong that she kept trying to save him. If you were trying to escape from something and your friend was like "SAVE YOURSELF" that doesn't mean you're just gonna be like "ALRIGHT SEE YA LATER" and ditch them. :P
FormerlyUnknown Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 i just hate her cause her boobs. and lau jiu. i feel like noel =p
ClubAmerican Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 I don't see why it's so wrong that she kept trying to save him. If you were trying to escape from something and your friend was like "SAVE YOURSELF" that doesn't mean you're just gonna be like "ALRIGHT SEE YA LATER" and ditch them. :P It shouldn't even be about that. Flaws make characters interesting. I thought Tsubaki was boring as hell, the stoic overbearing perfect supporter of the NOL she is, until I played her story and she ultimately succumbs to her less heroic emotions and attacks everyone she loves. That's story telling! Evil characters are also very interesting. Hazama is probably my favorite character, but it goes without saying he is a monster. He just goes about being evil in an entertaining way. I don't think people realize that these are all story elements. Story Writing 101: it doesn't matter if the protagonist is ultimately just as long as that character is interesting!
Shadow Draygon Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 People have been to poisoned by their love of crappy 1 dimensional anime characters. Not that BB has superb story telling aspects, but at least it's better than most.
What_The_Factor Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 Calling this. Hazama is lord Tenjo's son (Bang's master's son). Not the personality, but the body. Terumi was around when Jin was killing dudes in their bases in Ikaruga, and Terumi was on top of him when he got to Lord Tenjo. Terumi then infested Hazama's body. Bang's gonna get his Nox that splits connections to the boundary to save Lord Tenjo's son from Terumi's domination, and return his normal personality back. Bang is gonna basically be a huge help in the next game, unlike these two. Or maybe the fourth. This may happen farther in the future. But don't worry, Hazama will still be playable. He's still got Ouroboros, the nox, so there's no reason his fighting style should change. He'll probably gain mobility and some fun stuff. Why did he join the NOL then, if he was from Ikaruga? Well, I'mma go with Terumi did, as he was dominating Hazama's mind. /Speculation Agree/Disagree?
Jordan Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 Conflicting characters are what make a story interesting. If everyone was bland and clichéd, I probably would want nothing to do with the BlazBlue story. It just so happens, that there are character conflicts, both morally and physically. Which is is why I do enjoy the story as much as I do. Now, I personally am very fond of the characters that are designated as 'evil' in stories. They tend to be some of my favorites, and I always find myself hoping they win (usually.) Albeit, this may be biased, but I'm hoping for some type of ending in any future installments where 'Team Troll' wins. Whether it be just an alternate ending, or a canonically correct one. I think that would just be BA in itself. Considering how dark CS was story wise, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch either. When it comes to the cleavage duo that was added to Team Troll, I'm not sure I can see them being redeemed. Looking at Litchi, she seemed so desperate in her love, trying to save Arakune and Hazama did his thing and preyed on that. Now it's possible that she can be saved, possibly having Bang do so, but whether she wants to be saved is another story. Likewise, if she finds out they have no intention of helping her out, she might try to go AWOL, in which I can only foresee Hazama & friends killing her on the spot. Now, as much as I love Tsubaki, probably one of my top characters, her situation is even worse. I say this because it seems to be that she is more under mind control, probably from Phantom. Of course, she harbored jealousy and etc. before, and Izayoi (or w/e) wasn't helping either, but even then she was hesitant about fighting Jin or Noel, and could not bring herself to kill them. However, it wasn't until Phantom and Hazama showed up, and her inexplicable costume change that she was ready and willing to kill them. I mean, if she isn't being possessed/mind control, then what's the point of the visual aid? Why didn't Litchi get one (I don't think she had one, :P)? Thats just how I see it, anyway.
Shadow Draygon Posted August 10, 2010 Posted August 10, 2010 Relius has directly commented on how he personally built "Hazama" so no, that's not even close to being an ounce of speculation.
ChrisX Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Well, that's how they run anyway. Haters. This is probably just from those who cannot adapt with change. Litchi was once presented as thoroughly good person. Even if she joins NOL to save her beloved, NOL is still a higher scale of evil because it has Terumi, as well as being the faction opposed by our protagonist (Yes, Sector Seven has equally questionable actions, but they benefit by being the side that backs our protagonist Ragna up), especially when she needs no trolling to make her do so, will make some of her supporters cringe. It's like a destruction of what they believed for. They believed that Litchi is a good person, but she joined an evil organization, and it makes her look bad, and in disappointment, they declare hatred. Perhaps her staying in the side of good will make the story bland. But, some just want their fuzzy feelings about good guys can still be looked up as good guys to stay. As observed, they accepted Jin going from bad to good better because it's easier to accept a redeemed bad guy rather than a good guy betraying the good. Litchi has been revealed to be fighting under 'love', not 'people'. She may not have betrayed her lover, but she pretty much betrayed every other people that cared about her, within or outside the fourth wall. Probably, those people has been completely missing the point about her. Still, I wonder how will Litchi find out that she's being selfish? Does she find out herself, or did someone had to spit it out that she's being selfish and no better than any other world-destroying guys? And as I said many times, I would still believe that Hazama would troll Litchi into hating Kokonoe. It's still very possible.
DonMagicJuan Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Relius has directly commented on how he personally built "Hazama" so no, that's not even close to being an ounce of speculation. Yup. As for bodies, my theory is that Terumi used Jin's body when he was a part of the Six Heroes.
ChrisX Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Okay, well I keep hearing about Litchi possibly talking Tsubaki out. For speculation/theory... what would they even talk about? What's the chance of that 'talk out' make Tsubaki rethink of her decision? And would that 'talk out' benefit Litchi as well? Since Gag Reels aren't taken canon and they both only interacted in Gag Reels, I find it hard to imagine what they would talk about... And I think Tsubaki is old enough that it's very improbable for Litchi to give her a treatment like she did to Carl...
p-kun Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Wait, wait. People hate litchi because there is the possibility that she has shaky morals? Why would this be a reason to not like a character? So I'm guessing they all hate Hazama? and Ragna, Jin, Arakune, Nu, and most of the cast? If anything her inability to let go of her love is just part of her personality, it actually makes the situation more interesting story-wise and makes her easily influenced by the villains, adding more to the story itself. I think people who hate Litchi now are the ones who liked her because they thought she was one of the rare morally white characters in the game. They just feel betrayed. Or the people that thought her decision in CS is out of their personal interpretation of her character from CT. I wonder why people thought Litchi was such a virtuous person anyway. On the other hand, since CT I sometimes feel that I'm the only one that thinks that Arakune likes is Kokonoe? She's the only one that he remembers. Another thing is Terumi's motive. He looks like a death seeker to me from the scene of his defeat by Ragna in true end. Besides, isn't a world of death bad for him, since he's already a ghost. In a world where the dead is dead, he will die for real, no?
Shadow Draygon Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Another thing is Terumi's motive. He looks like a death seeker to me from the scene of his defeat by Ragna in true end. Besides, isn't a world of death bad for him, since he's already a ghost. In a world where the dead is dead, he will die for real, no? With that logic, that means Neo from Matrix would be considered a villain.
ChrisX Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Not sure. I dunno where, but Terumi doesn't look like Death Seeker. His motive reason of doing evil is just because HE CAN. And he really likes it. He probably is saying that to make an excuse out of doing evil. I've seen another character who sought death at all cost, but on the way, he did a lot of atrocities that makes him no better than Terumi. If Terumi turns out to be a Death Seeker, it'll make things worse for Ragna, because beating and destroying him would mean giving what Terumi wants, thus making it his victory rather than Ragna's. And really, it's easy to see Litchi being morally white from CT. Throughout CT, everyone has a beef against Ragna, or actively seeking to kill him for the bounty (or the Azure, in case of Arakune). Litchi doesn't. She's just there as the protector of Orient Town. The people loved her, she cared a lot about them... It's really easy to see her even whiter than Bang, who despite fighting for justice, is one of the people who wants Ragna's bounty. She's seen to have an universal love and care. When you take out that 'universal love' and make it look like 'I only love one person, and I'll sacrifice the rest for him'... it's easy to feel betrayed. Now do you even feel betrayed? If no, then how do you think to make it look like you're not betrayed? On Arakune's case, I'm more of thinking that the reason why he remembers Kokonoe was because of hatred. She kept refusing to help him, locked him up in one room, there should be a lot of angers within him, and probably that's what he thought: grudge.
p-kun Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Maybe Terumi wants to die with a bang? Being a death seeker doesn't mean you have to be all gloom and doom and you cannot have fun doing it. Maybe he wants to have the whole world accompany him? You cannot take characters at face value. Action speaks louder than words. At least using this principle, I've been pleasantly surprised how spot on my interpretation of CT's Litchi (and Jin) in CS. To me, Litchi is someone who has good intention, tries hard to do good, but for everything Arakune related she always slips off her morality standard spectacularly. She is so obsessive, it is quite creepy. To elaborate, Litchi's quest was to catch and stop Arakune and possibly "relieve" him from misery. In CT, assuming all path happened at some point, she had more than enough opportunities to do so. Arakune was defeated at multiple points -> Litchi protected him -> Litchi promised to keep him in tight leash -> Arakune still free, someone obviously not living up her promise -> Arakune eats people. Rinse and repeat. I think it's pretty obvious that there's sth off with her. For Arakune, well, people say that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. The extent he went to get Kokonoe's acknowledgment - it's like sb who wants attention. It's pure speculation, of course .
ClubAmerican Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 She's seen to have an universal love and care. When you take out that 'universal love' and make it look like 'I only love one person, and I'll sacrifice the rest for him'... it's easy to feel betrayed. Now do you even feel betrayed? If no, then how do you think to make it look like you're not betrayed? So I'm the only person who thinks this makes litchi more interesting? It's called a dramatic twist. They keep characters from becoming that stale 1 dimensional anime character. I feel that people are forgetting that they are trying to tell an interesting story here. She was, after all, quite boring and useless to the story without this predicament. The way Bang and Hakumen are virtuous is cool because they are overly heroic and epic about it. That thick-headed, sometimes self serving, and overly dramatic style is my favorite archetype for a hero character. Litchi wasn't that interesting as just someone who was there to be nice to everyone. She had no business being in the storyline at all, she would have just been the busty fighter game chick, which by no means is a bad thing of course. If people think this is coming from left field then I have to ask if they were even paying attention to how obsessed she was with arakune since CT. You had to figure something like this would happen with a villain as manipulative as hazama. All I should have to emphasis is that it's a story, not real life. In a good story, the characters and their flaws are there to keep the story going and keep it fresh. I realize that this is a fighting game, but if you are going to have a character-centric story then the characters are the plot devices and they must be interesting and evolve to make the story work. Also, the return of her drunken perverted lesbian cosplay fanatic antics just adds to my love for her. Does that make me weird?
FormerlyUnknown Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Maybe Terumi wants to die with a bang? Being a death seeker doesn't mean you have to be all gloom and doom and cannot have fun doing it you. Maybe he wants to have the whole world accompany him? I terumi the new kuja? i like it
ChrisX Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 (But then again, as we discussed above, Hazama hasn't had a hand in manipulation... He's just predicting and predicting in case of Litchi. In this case, prediction goes right.) Interesting, yes. I didn't say she's boring. But... interesting can go hand-in-hand with garnering hatred, and the feels of betrayals. She has two choices: Stay static & boring, but kept her dedicated fans who looked up to her to her good morals; or be interesting, and turn some of her fans into haters. Really sometimes, it's hard to be her. I'm sure lots of her haters would want her predicament to be not involving 'joining the bad guys', as in there is a predicament, but she still remains on the good moral side, so they can still look up to her. Or that would make things more boring? In the end, I suppose most people (except a select few here) Carl for Litchi. Everyone tried to look up to her as a role model of a good person, then WHAM, she suddenly does otherwise. I'll not be surprised if Mori suddenly gives a metaphor for the haters in form of Carl later, finding out Litchi joining NOL, he snaps out. AGAIN. (Discussing her negativities like this may make me look like a hater, but I'd like to make it clear that I still like her regardless) And if Terumi wants to die with a bang and taking the world with him... well that doesn't fix his image further. No pity is going to be given for such character, especially after a laundry list of atrocities he had.
ClubAmerican Posted August 11, 2010 Posted August 11, 2010 Hazama hasn't had a hand in manipulation... Yea he did. It was his suggestion that influenced Litchi to join the bad dudes. and turn some of her fans into haters What I'm getting at here is that these haters don't know how story telling works. Also that it's their loss.
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