[CS1] Rachel vs Mu

[Jason D.]

This thread is for discussing the Rachel vs Mu match-up. Under the assumption that one day there will be good Mu players.

[Zeromus_X]

So uh. Rachel is on the ground. And Mu is spamming her primer breaking lasers from the other side of the screen. What do you do?

[checkplus]

Yea, good question, she has been walking all over me. She seems pretty CT Rachelish with a bit of nu mixed in. The lasers fire a bit after they target, so they're not hard to dodge if you keep track of them (but it's still hard to get in with a bunch of them around). basically what I've been doing is waiting for one of them to miss and summoning George. Then I wind him over there while she's summoning, so far, they haven't even tried to stop him, but that'll change once they get better. Either way, you didn't stop her lasers yet, they have a long enough delay that the opening comes about a second after her last summon, so it's hard to use even a hit from him as an opening. One of the most important things is that she can delay her attacks that will hit you even if you do hit her. Your best bet is to do a combo that moves a lot such as an air combo or a 6c starter to make any turrets miss.

Unsurprisingly, her defense sucks, though she does have a super with some decent invincibility that keeps getting me. Her pokes are big and annoying, but surprising her with something tricky seems all too effective. I'm not 100% on this, but she doesn't seem to have an answer to some of the slower block strings because of the startup for her moves.

[Sindelian]

The wall of lasers in unbeatable. You can't zone and you can't rush down... You can only hope and pray that they make a mistake.

[Kuuhaku]

Ok. For one, the lasers aren't that bad. They have no hit stun at all so it's not like vs Litchi where getting hit by one of those things means you're going to be missing a big chunk if your life. However, the thing is Rachel's projectiles are all pretty damn slow compared to Mu and it's not that hard for Mu to keep Rachel at a distance, especially when Lobelias bounce off of lasers and lasers eat pumpkin for free (zoning character who can't zone ).

Actually, Rachel's best chance is a rush down game. Mu isn't that great under pressure and her DP is pretty easy to bait. If you try to zone Mu, you're going to flat out lose. However, she doesn't have much to get out of Rachel's sad mix up game if you keep an eye out for that DP (which if you block is a free 5B). If Mu's in the air spamming lasers, catch her with jC if you have the chance. jC air to air is still pretty good.

Rachel can also cat chair through her slow two hit overhead for free (start up on that thing is slow and it's really obvious). So keep this in mind if they like to use this in block strings. Also, when Mu does command laser, her pew pew orbs disappear... so that's a good oppertunity to get in on her. If she doesn't have lasers up, air dash + wind + jB is not a bad way to approach, especially if you have pumpkin/george backing you up.

Oh yeah... if you have rods out, you can give her some of her own medicine and punish her for shooting lasers (only you can actually get damage off of your lasers).

[unsanctifier]

high jumping and using Air-A Lobs help a bit in this match, as long as you're paying attention to layzurs.

[gli]

Yeah this match-up is bad for Rachel. Mu basically took what you were good at in CT and just throws it in your face.

[unsanctifier]

even worse when there are so few players who use her on your network

[TD]

IAD 6d get you in there. Mu is pretty slow, and as silly as it may sound, she's one of the chars Rach can blatantly get to.

Since zoning is useless, use wind in this match to manuever wisely. backdash 4d, iabd 4d dash 6d, all of these actually get Mu guessing. With Rach moving so freely, Mu might attempt one of her slow ass normals. That's the time to strike.

lt's like 5.5 Mu if l had to guess. Mu might play like Rachel, but this match is more like CT RC vs LI. Watch for 6c, stay out of the corner

[Alex073088]

Are you fucking stupid tempest? seriously??? 5.5, people on the psn side must really really play like such scrubs. Everything you posted has nothin to to do with the actual match-up. Allow a much better and experinced player(myself) who actually mains rachel in cs correct your misinformation. In all honesty mu-12 vs rachel in cs is like 7-3 or 6.5 mu favor.

mu out ranges rachels, runs much faster then rachel, out zones rachel, out damages rachel, and rushes better then rachel.

You are unable to zone against mu-12 at all the orbs and lasers come out super fast and will cancel any summon you wish to get. so you may think its okay to air dash plus wind? wrong, against a good mu-12 they will makes sure that the air is covered with lasers =).If your winding and jumping to high the mu-12 can simply just run under neath of you all the way to the other side of the screen. once you do get to mu-12 she can easyly and quickly summon her special move that travels through the set orbs and bounce off them to hit you. even if you hit mu-12 the laser still come and will likely hit you on counter hit allowing mu to do a free combo on you. If you do know how to rush with rachel, like how i do, you have to bait a dp.When baiting dp's this allows the players to escape or start there offense when they know that you are going to respect or bait dps. If mu jumps, you have j.c but j.b is not very good due to mu-12 having superior horizantal normals and will beat that move out clean.

If ever knockdown and place in an orb and laser traps, there many set-ups to keep you guessing and mix you up into the same set-up once again. Mu-12 and call also rush and you and zone you at the same time. her normals are not hakumen or tager slow(cant believe someone posted that) when you lack range(rachel) long normals can be very problematic espically in the corner. rachel super tempest dailha works good if ever bursted or dp off her to punish full screen orb and laser set-ups.

All in all, mu-12 flat owns rachel, like many other characters in the game. MU-12 can rush and zone rachel easyly without worry of anything. You have no options, espically if her decides to rush you down. shes quicker on the ground and can easyly backdash and also back airdash away if she feels threathened. Laser are very hard to deal with using rachel, and will block your flight path over to mu-12,(they shoot toward the air as well). Stay free psn.

[TD]

Yeah l am stupid and you are gdlk. :]

[unsanctifier]

alex is right though, sadly, there isn't much you can do, the j.aloebs are only good 'cause they travel over

i did some practice against mu's today, and rushdown is a good option, but just running on the ground, no air stuff. you'll get destroyed quickly now that they know what they're doing

you have to keep them occupied, have to make sure that they can't start spamming them layzurs, if she knocks you away you may be stuck for quite a while...that's when ground dash works best, once she starts going for the air steins that is...

[tofurr]

I'll have to agree with him too, although his way of expressing his feelings on the matter were uncalled for.

the j.aloebs are only good 'cause they travel over

Even those aren't that great. You can still get hit by a lasers while you're in the air during recovery and your A Lobelia will disappear before it hits the ground.

Ground approach is probably best, you just gotta look out for those 214D's, DP, long range attacks, and maybe j.236A when you get in.

[unsanctifier]

Yeah that's true. But when I say j.a Loebs, I don't mean spam them. Once in a while just as random tactic. It's nice to have a pole by your opponents area once in a while.

[Alex073088]

tofurr it was very so called for, tempest doesnt even main rachel...then he had the nerve to come in here and post information that wasnt true at all. mu-12 is clearly in a huge advantage against rachel just like most the cast in the game. And for him to have posted that truely pissed me off. It may not be his fault though they might just suck super bad on the psn side. mu-12 doesnt even have to even work hard to defeat rachel.

[TD]

Mu dosen't have to work hard to defeat your rachel, correction.

Don't tell me who l do and don't main. Just because l posted a new idea to move around with wind, y'know, like it was DESIGNED, and you're too ignorant to try the shit out is your fucking problem. l swear l don't know why l stopped ignoring your dumbass.

Tell you what, y'all niggas want to stay free and back from mu instead of being unpredictable and rushing her ass down, so be it. l'm trying to give hope up in here.

[Kuuhaku]

6D isn't a bad way to approach Mu. Just I personally would save wind for something else. Rachel's normal ground dash is good enough to catch Mu. I don't think Mu is 7-3 or 6.5... probably more like a 5.5. I haven't played enough to be sure, but that's my guess from Mus I have played against. It's definantly a bad match up, but not all that bad compared to the other lopsided match ups Rachel has to deal with. It's more along the lines of Hazama and Arakune annoying. Mu's damage is low and her pressure isn't all that good. If you can watch out for her DP, you're good to go. Rachel's fast enough to catch her and do mix up, just too sorry to zone her.

[currentlemon]

Rachel's 6a can beat Mu's j.b and j.c. It's just she will use her lasers to cover her when she is in the air.

[Alex073088]

tempest once again the psn side must really be free, you should come over here one day. play tectical eastide, or beignpacifist or flyingve's mu-12 and see so for yourself. The videos i seen that you put of your ct rachel were against absolute scrubs. And you dont main rachel, infact you just started showing up around when rachel was receiving upgrades in loketest.Lol trying to give hope in here, we dont need shit from you. You abandoned rachel when cs came, and you werent even all that good to begin with. Then you post misinformation. You act like we dont know rachel can airdash and ground dashg with wind to confuse the opponent. If you check my time on the stream which was posted in the video thread i do it all the time. Its funny how someone who left the character can come in and tell someone who stick with her any kind of thing.

And seriously bok. 5.5 so your suggesting that mu-12 is about the same as fighting against tsubaki? because that is how a 5.5 match feels like. theres no way in the world anything can be considered a 5.5 mu favorable match if 75% of what you can do does not work at all in the match. You are able to zone and rush tsubaki. while mu-12 can only be rushed and getting to that point is not easy against good players. i seen mu-12 do 4.5k off 2b how is that low damage? rachel cant even go no where in the ball park of 4k off a low even with 4 bars of wind and 100% HEAT.

The characters movement is very good running and backdashing. The character has longer ranged normals then you do. A godly 3c, and 2a, a dp that knocks full screen, guranteed laser set-ups, decent guard crush. While rachel has the ability to move forward with win running into all of these things on the way...hmmm that really doesnt sound like a 5.5 i bet you mu-12 players wouldnt even agree with that.

I will say that if you instant block her overhead you can interprut her chargeable normal that they tend to do afterward. but they can also dp.

[Alzarath]

I like how a difference in opinion translates to an entire network or w/e of players being free.

Keep this nonsense out of these threads plz.

[TD]

Being patient is also a key part of this match. Mu's mixup is crap, but her zoning isn't, so it's advised you don't summon anything when you have the space, or you might eat a healthy 7k.

l usually like to sit down and possibly look for a pattern (or an opening) of steins while recharging wind. Unless she keeps exploding/charging steins her zoning will not hurt the patient.

And getting in means keeping balls to the wall. You want her in that corner forever. Fortunately Rachel still excels in the corner.

[K2]

rush her down, good luck

use jd to get in

[Kuuhaku]

And seriously bok. 5.5 so your suggesting that mu-12 is about the same as fighting against tsubaki? because that is how a 5.5 match feels like. theres no way in the world anything can be considered a 5.5 mu favorable match if 75% of what you can do does not work at all in the match. You are able to zone and rush tsubaki. while mu-12 can only be rushed and getting to that point is not easy against good players. i seen mu-12 do 4.5k off 2b how is that low damage? rachel cant even go no where in the ball park of 4k off a low even with 4 bars of wind and 100% HEAT.

Uh, no. Rachel's damage is shit, but not that low. Rachel also has the advantage of being able to punish Mu's crappy mix up thanks to IB + 5A/5B. And... you're forgetting that against V-13, CT Rachel couldn't zone V-13 for shit either. Rachel v. Mu is similar in concept to CT Rachel v. V-13 except V-13 had good mix up and 6k meterless damage while Mu, in comparison to V-13 and a good portion of the CS cast doesn't really shine that bright (then again Rachel's pretty awful so it balances out to about the same).

4.5k off of a situational 2B (I'm assuming she needs meter + setup) is nothing compared to Litchi 5-6k meterless combo + 50 meter corner oki... because that's a 7-3 match up. It's a shitty match up, but at worst 5.5-6 in Mu's favor. And... I dunno what you mean by Mu's 2A being gdlk. Mu's 2A is actually worse than Rachel's. It's just a crappy version of Lambda's 2A.

[Gil]

6-4 imo. Much like most of her match-ups, you have to play the waiting game. This is after playing a lot of good Mus, including Pulsr btw.

[Alex073088]

Uh, no. Rachel's damage is shit, but not that low. Rachel also has the advantage of being able to punish Mu's crappy mix up thanks to IB + 5A/5B. And... you're forgetting that against V-13, CT Rachel couldn't zone V-13 for shit either. Rachel v. Mu is similar in concept to CT Rachel v. V-13 except V-13 had good mix up and 6k meterless damage while Mu, in comparison to V-13 and a good portion of the CS cast doesn't really shine that bright (then again Rachel's pretty awful so it balances out to about the same).

4.5k off of a situational 2B (I'm assuming she needs meter + setup) is nothing compared to Litchi 5-6k meterless combo + 50 meter corner oki... because that's a 7-3 match up. It's a shitty match up, but at worst 5.5-6 in Mu's favor. And... I dunno what you mean by Mu's 2A being gdlk. Mu's 2A is actually worse than Rachel's. It's just a crappy version of Lambda's 2A.

mu-12 2a is pretty decent, compared to rachels 2a no it isnt as good, but 3c as nu-v13 did is godlike when a lobelia a is thrown out. Lets forget ct because nu into lamada was a fair translation. rachel in cs r.i.p rachel was over nerfed. Fighting against lamada is alot easier then fighting against mu-12 and i considered that match-up a 6-4. the reason being is that is alot easier to dash over, or under one sword right into lamada's opening. however it is not easy getting around the lasers. that cover much more space much quicker then lamada's projectiles. This is why i personally consider the match-up 7.5 to 2.5 or 6.5 to 3.5. Plus lamada does not always even have a "reversal" always available like mu-12 does. YOu still have to give mu-12 dp respect because if you dont you will be full screen again.

Also YOU ALL are forgetting that mu-12 can also rush your down too. And while shes rushing you down she can put out steins(lasers) in the process. Yes i posted before, when you block the overhead on instant block you are able to 5a/2a it before any other attack is allowed, but mu-12 can also dp. Also mu-12 overheads are not super slow, they are much faster then rachels 28 frame 4b. Suggesting that you can block them(mu-12's two overheads) is completely unrealistic. when knockdown or grabbed there are tricky laser beam set-ups that will confuse you into more set-ups. so simply saying oh i can block or avoid all her up close game is being very unrealistic. Its possible but at somepoint you would like to attack also. As i have mentioned before she also has stable moves/projectiles that take off guard primers. And rachel has only 4, 2 if you happen to need a burst.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Alex073088