New Guilty Gear?

[Wirya]

Arcsys already lowered Johnny's damage output for some reason. And I kinda agree with them, Johnny should not be a monstrous swordsman type character. He should be more tricky, but make his tricks more worthwhile, much more than in AC.

[IronTager]

yeah sorry bro

I want / Johnny back + Killer Joker

It's fine man. I remember when Mist Finer use to be really good. Better than it is now... It's much harder to set up currently and it seems like the only way to get it is to have your enemy in the corner.... Ah well. Maybe they can at least buff the Mist Finer again and that'd help. They have to give him some way to make up for the fact that all his good damage output is wasted if he doesn't land his hits right.

- Nerf Venom's ball super. I can't tell you how much I hate that thing. Fast recovery, huge, kills your super if you super block it and just kills you if you're at low health and have no tension to super block, allows Venom to mixup like crazy, even if you see it coming Venom can anti-air you, pushes you to the corner if you're hit, it's one of the greatest supers I've ever seen. It not only compliments Venom's pressures, but it does more. Much, much more... Urgh, I hate it.

[Wirya]

No way. Do NOT nerf Venom's Dark Angel. Unless his playstyle is changed radically.

[IronTager]

No way. Do NOT nerf Venom's Dark Angel. Unless his playstyle is changed radically.

Why not? : S It's a ridiculously good super. It doesn't have to be a huge nerf, probably just reduce the amount of frames are in between each hit so it doesn't do ridiculous guard damage or waste ALL of your super. I mean, at times, you might as well not block it. Plus, it's ridiculously hard to get out of the corner when your character relies on super to push their enemies away or escape pressure. Though, I would like to hear your reason. : 3

[Wirya]

Reducing the guard damage (which means reducing the damage itself) sounds feasible, although I'm not really sure. The guard damage is one of the reasons people should fear the super.

Dark Angel pushes the opponent to a corner, and that really helps Venom. Without cornering his opponent, Venom can't really do anything worthwhile, AFAIK. So unless Arcsys do something to that (maybe changing his playstyle so he's more beast even when not cornering his opponent), Dark Angel should stay that way.

[IronTager]

I see... That's a good point actually. I'm more bothered by the guard damage it's self to be honest, just cause all my super is gone afterward. It's hard to escape Venom's pressure, especially if you're in the corner. It's where he gets his best damage too and since the ball is so large, he can mixup without you being able to tell where he's going to do... Personally, I find the super to be good without the guard damage either, but it does add on to the fear. I'm more afraid of being in the corner though cause if I'm in the corner, my guard damage is basically guaranteed to be up with Venom's pressure, so high that they'll count as multiple counter hits, that's how he gets amazing damage from. Otherwise, he doesn't do too much damage outside of that, so I guess I see the point to that too.

[BlueBleep]

I hate BlazBlue. I really do. I only play it because it has a similar play style to Guilty Gear, and its online. If it weren't for those things, I would have never touched it. But recently I have been playing only Guilty Gear. Where I live, no one plays, so I am stuck playing the computer over and over, but that is still more fun that BlazBlue any day.

I like to think I am part of the hardcore crowd when it comes to fighting games, and thinking about it now, I hope they hold off making a new Guilty Gear. If they make one right now, with such a high casual player base, they will have to make it simple like BlazBlue to get the people interested. Look at Street Fighter 4 for example. They went back to Street Fighter 2, made it 3D, and added some more mechanics. 3rd Strike was deep, and it scared people off, just like Guilty Gear does. If/when the casual fighter craze wares off, then they could make the game for the hardcore crowd again, and make it just as deep, if not deeper, than the current Guilty Gears.

I mean, shit, they could even make a fun Isuka

[4r5]

I would remove the proration on Johnny's Mist Finers, and then give him combo options that build meter. You use to be able to spend his coins to buy more meter, and corner carry, at the expense of damage. But now Mist Finers send your opponent in all sorts of not-useful directions. Essentially, I'm asking to make his Mist Finers the way they were before AC. I also wouldn't mind Coins and Divine Blade going back to building guard gauge. That I way I can also have the option of investing my money, or meter, on a potential return in damage later.

But assuming Johnny's AC changes wasn't just some lowbrow attempt at making Johnny more flashy (didn't outside observers already think he was flashy?), I would continue with the current direction: allow more mixup ability, while reduce the payout on good reads. Let all his air normals crossup. Make 6K JC-able. Auto-JI the ground versions of Divine Blade and Killer Joker. Allow multiple air Killer Jokers. Replace 5H and 6H, with crappier versions of themselves. Coin FRC? Ensenga FRC? Honestly I don't think whoever did AC understood the implications of Johnny's Mist Finer changes. Nor do I believe they had a direction in mind when making Johnny's, or any other character's changes. Many changes feel like, "Wouldn't it be cool?" changes, rather than, "Wouldn't it be more interesting?" changes. But I think that's a testament of how well built Guilty Gear's framework is that each character is still reasonably playable.

But what I really want is a Coin ForceBreak, where instead of throwing a Coin, he throws a bottle of alcohol. It'll apply a 'soaked' effect. While 'soaked' the next hit with a Slash, Hard Slash, or sword/fire attack will ignite the opponent for big damage. Think Jagi's gasoline super. With this, 1-hit Ensengas become a choice between misting them for damage now, or soaking them for potentially more damage latter. But nah, that wouldn't be cool or interesting, or fit in to Johnny's playstyle of delaying damage now for even bigger damage latter.

IronTager, I think Venom's Dark Angle is fine. This is more a problem of Johnny being a bit too weak, rather than Venom being too strong. Lv2 Mid Mist Finer not converting to a combo every single time was a pretty significant change in this match up. Also, if you're willing to take the chip and guard jack, instant blocking Dark Angle gives you 50% meter.

[Wirya]

Baccush Sigh is already funny-looking as it is (where the hell does that mist come out of, anyway?), so why not adding one or two more funny-looking mist moves? I'm thinking of a forcebreak where Johnny throws out a smoke grenade, which is basically a much faster version of Baccush Sigh. If the grenade hits the opponent, it will explode and cover the opponent with a smoke. This may sound like too broken, so maybe the smoke duration should not be too long, maybe much shorter than Baccush Sigh.

[unsanctifier]

opinion

Omg, rational thinking about how to edit Johnny? Not on my dustloop!

But yeah, 4rS is right. The "problem" with Johnny are his options before setting up for later. He's supposed to be *tickletickle* until later when he can do impressive damage. But until the damage part, he doesn't have many options because he is restricted to working up towards the big finishers.

If he had some other things to do until then...Well...He wouldn't suck so hard. But just as options. If they were good enough to use as a main strategy you just lost your character's style completely in terms of how he would be used by players @_@

[qwerty]

make far slash hit just a bit lower, give airborne 6K CH more untech time, give him more reliable midscreen mixups

congratulations, johnny just rose two tiers

[zdravkelja]

I really like the way mist finers work in AC, that's why I switched to Johnny. Combos are more interesting and easier to do. And it's flashy Yup, it's harder to combo from mid mist finer midscreen, maybe they could've increased time for sliding effect.

Alcohol bottle is win

[IronTager]

I'm not sure why a mixup would be too good for Johnny to be honest. I mean, most of what I see from Johnny is good enough zoning to get his pokes in. He never gets too close though. So unless it was a decent ranged overhead or something, I guess that could work. But then again, people are usually trying to get in on Johnny cause once you get in his bubble, he's can get popped pretty easily. It seems like the best time to mix up is when the enemy is in the corner. But then, what's the point? You most likely have the enemy in a mist finer trap.

His pressures are pretty short too, so mixing up with short pressures. His pressure is still good, but it's hard to confuse an opponent if you're not putting too much pressure on them and be a distance when doing it (Plus, his best pressures deal with using up coins, so you can't be stingy). So if he does get one, it'd need good range and probably have to be a bit fast.

If anyone disagrees, please feel free to state your opinion.

[4r5]

TK Ensenga not a long enough ranged overhead for you? It has more range then Chipp's dust, and out ranges Johnny's own 6H.

You could probably come up with a huge list of Johnny changes, but then only implement 2 or 3 of those changes and Johnny would be fine, in the current game. But I wouldn't want to see Johnny having better mixups, in the high/low or left/right sense. I think that would be very out of character. He's suppose to have the bare minimum tool set needed to open someone up and hit them, but have lots of ways of making that next hit hurt more and more, whether through increasing mist level, guard bar jacking, herding them to the corner, or dangerous post-combo setups.

[IronTager]

TK Ensenga not a long enough ranged overhead for you? It has more range then Chipp's dust, and out ranges Johnny's own 6H.

You could probably come up with a huge list of Johnny changes, but then only implement 2 or 3 of those changes and Johnny would be fine, in the current game. But I wouldn't want to see Johnny having better mixups, in the high/low or left/right sense. I think that would be very out of character. He's suppose to have the bare minimum tool set needed to open someone up and hit them, but have lots of ways of making that next hit hurt more and more, whether through increasing mist level, guard bar jacking, herding them to the corner, or dangerous post-combo setups.

I think it's a fine overhead. I just suggested the overhead thing just because others were stating Johnny's mixup game is not great. I agree with what they're saying, his mixups are decent, but I don't think it would fit him well either... To be honest, I just added the idea of the overhead thing to avoid harrasment and keep with both sides so I wouldn't be either or. But it seems like if you say anything at all that anyone disagrees with, they give you Hell for it instead of being reasonable and saying "Oh, I disagree. I think ----" and so on.

Though, now that I think about it, maybe it'd be a good idea if Johnny had combos that pushed the enemy to the corner a bit easier. I notice that a lot of his combos can get them an alright range, but usually he has to get a grab in or a couple of decent pushes to get them there. Also, even if he gets them to the corner, if you didn't knock them down there, the opponent can push back pretty easily at times. Depends on who you fight, but often times I see Johnny getting pushed back after working hard enough to get someone to the corner.

[qwerty]

But I wouldn't want to see Johnny having better mixups, in the high/low or left/right sense. I think that would be very out of character. He's suppose to have the bare minimum tool set needed to open someone up and hit them, but have lots of ways of making that next hit hurt more and more, whether through increasing mist level, guard bar jacking, herding them to the corner, or dangerous post-combo setups.

i for one wouldn't mind a midscreen mixup that doesn't involve an airdash crossup.

[Wirya]

Johnny should fight more like a criminal. He should be more tricky, but in the sense of a criminal, unlike Millia's tricky-ness for example. What I mean is he should employ more dirty tricks, simple and also somewhat gimmicky.

That alcohol bottle thing sounds like what I'm saying here. It sounds tricky and dirty, not something a normal swordsman would do. Or that smoke grenade idea of mine.

[notsogos]

236k - Mist Raper

41236h - I shanked ya

412369h - TK i shanked ya

236h - where the fuck is my money you dumb ho? now get back on dat corner and show daddy more benjamins or its your fucking ass, trick

yeah i like it, johnny should fight like a criminal

[IronTager]

Doesn't he use Iaido? A bit odd for a criminal... Then again, I've always kinda been a bit worried since he's on a ship full of fully stacked 14 year olds... *Shivers* I think back in the old games, wasn't he sent to jail or something?

[Wirya]

@notsogos:

LMAO :thumbu:

@IronTager:

That's what I'm talking about. His image is already like that, why not strengthen it?

If Johnny really gets re-design in that direction, I can see him as a somewhat gimmicky character who can get unfair advantages BUT only when the situation is right. When the situation isn't, he doesn't suck, but isn't too strong either.

[qwerty]

If Johnny really gets re-design in that direction, I can see him as a somewhat gimmicky character who can get unfair advantages BUT only when the situation is right. When the situation isn't, he doesn't suck, but isn't too strong either.

kinda like how he is now? lol

whenever the subject of rebalancing johnny comes up, people always want to give him more gimmicks; let him pick up coins, give him a smoke grenade, give him a gun, whatever. either that or people cry over his execution barrier, which really isn't all that bad.

all ac johnny really needs to raise to c tier are a few decent midscreen mixups. all the ones he has now are like kjfrc airdash or kjfrc dash hop airdash backwards and just a whole bunch of shit that's easy to react to, easy to disrespect and costs meter.

if he had even one decent midscreen fuzzy or something, that'd be all he'd really need.

[Skye]

236k - Mist Raper

41236h - I shanked ya

412369h - TK i shanked ya

236h - where the fuck is my money you dumb ho? now get back on dat corner and show daddy more benjamins or its your fucking ass, trick

yeah i like it, johnny should fight like a criminal

Sigged, kinda.

[Wirya]

Not enough gimmicks Johnny has now, no. Not enough for some really unfair advantages. By "unfair" I mean things that look like cheating. Like that alcohol bottle, or even better my smoke grenade idea (easy unblockable anywhere).

EDIT:

This will make Johnny easier to play, attract more newbies. His basic gameplan will be throwing out powerful gimmicks (like that smoke grenade) at the right time, which will lead to nice easy damage. Easy enough for beginners. But for veterans it will introduce worthy challenges too, revolving around using the gimmicks in the most effective combinations possible.

[M.Song]

johnny's mixup options are fine as they are... there are other chars with just as bad of mixup options too that have the RTSD playstyle

[qwerty]

but do they have to spend meter on their shitty mixups? lol

i'm honestly fine with the way johnny's corner mixups are, i just really wish he could get one of his corner high/lows midscreen.