[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[SansProtocol]

DL is back up, let's get this sub-forum moving again!

Lots of stuff to research and discuss, let's get to it!

[C0R]

Spark, you must be so lonely.

[SansProtocol]

Spark, you must be so lonely.

This board is definitely quiet now.

It's quite weird.

[zreb]

I check here frequently but never much going on.

I've been getting better, but I still feel pretty reserved when it comes to technical discussion. lurk lurk.

I want to get new videos posted in the critique thread sometime, but we don't have recording equipment for offline and lolnetplay :I

Actually, I was wondering what people thought of the gurren -> super jump -> deep j2c oki stuff in that video I posted in the combo thread the other day ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijKwoNp8p-A#t=1m22s ). I've been experimenting with it, but I haven't had many opportunities to actually lab it very much.

Edited July 24, 2011 by zreb

[SansProtocol]

I check here frequently but never much going on.

I've been getting better, but I still feel pretty reserved when it comes to technical discussion. lurk lurk.

I want to get new videos posted in the critique thread sometime, but we don't have recording equipment for offline and lolnetplay :I

Actually, I was wondering what people thought of the gurren -> super jump -> deep j2c oki stuff in that video I posted in the combo thread the other day ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijKwoNp8p-A#t=1m22s ). I've been experimenting with it, but I haven't had many opportunities to actually lab it very much.

I'm not so completely sold on it. Not only do I feel like using Gurren as a combo finisher is a bit funky, but the fact that you'll get beat by anyone who DPs or blocks low after IBing the j.2C. Cancelling j.2C on block into Tsubaki is bad because if they'll already be blocking high, nothing to be gained there. I would rather 2B and cancel into 2/6D if need be then to lose out on damage and waste a magatama. I'll hit the lab with it and see what I can do. I'm interested in this but there has to be a better way.

[Dacidbro]

I think the function is that if done right, the j2C is safe-jumped, even for moves as fast as Jin's D DP. It could be really strong, especially since it seems to pick up non-neutral tech for free. Also, j2C > Tsubaki is not at all bad, because of the thread of j2C 2B or Renka at roughly the same speed. It 'looks' bad, but it's actually really hard to block right.

[mAc Chaos]

Ooh, I really like that oki setup. What I really like is that it does real damage... usually the tech roll catches do a pitiable amount that won't scare anyone.

And I think the traffic is affected by DL being down for a while. I wasn't aware it was back til a few days ago.

Those are some awesome combos. I like how many different combos there are to learn for Hakumen this time around. The trick is actually doing them. But we have that down as far as content goes; what really needs filling out are the matchup threads...

[SansProtocol]

I think the function is that if done right, the j2C is safe-jumped, even for moves as fast as Jin's D DP. It could be really strong, especially since it seems to pick up non-neutral tech for free. Also, j2C > Tsubaki is not at all bad, because of the thread of j2C 2B or Renka at roughly the same speed. It 'looks' bad, but it's actually really hard to block right.

Yeah, I agree that the j.2C oki is a great thing. Thinking over about it, Gurren doesn't stunt your automatic and regular meter gain as well so you'll receive the full amount from whatever comes after the j.2C. I am a bit weary on wherever or not you can't just roll out like Ludacris, so I'll see what happens in the lab.

Secondly, you are right about the Tsubaki. As much as I hate using meter when you haven't made a solid hit-confirm, you can't land and the instant overhead j.B as I am not sure you'll hit most of the cast when they're crouching. I guess if you don't have meter, you can always go for the 6B after the j.2C. Thanks for the insight.

Ooh, I really like that oki setup. What I really like is that it does real damage... usually the tech roll catches do a pitiable amount that won't scare anyone.

And I think the traffic is affected by DL being down for a while. I wasn't aware it was back til a few days ago.

Those are some awesome combos. I like how many different combos there are to learn for Hakumen this time around. The trick is actually doing them. But we have that down as far as content goes; what really needs filling out are the matchup threads...

Yeah, I'm trying to work on matchup thread information as I need to take what I put in the Tsubaki subforum and combine it into a suitable format. Plus, there's still a few more matchups I want to get to in terms of absolutely necessary.

[Schneider-X]

From my testing, it seems that you can escape the j.2C oki setup with a forward roll or spam a quick 5A to hit hakumen out of the j.2C, though the latter maybe dependent on the height of where hakumen is. I've had some instances where the opponent would be unable to hit you out of it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[zreb]

From my testing, it seems that you can escape the j.2C oki setup with a forward roll or spam a quick 5A to hit hakumen out of the j.2C, though the latter maybe dependent on the height of where hakumen is. I've had some instances where the opponent would be unable to hit you out of it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

It depends on the timing. I messed with it a bit and found it was actually a little more difficult than it looks like--at least to reproduce what was being shown in the video. If you super jump too early, the opponent will cross under you when they don't emergency tech. You have to wait a moment for them to bounce off the wall and push you just a little before you jump. If you wait too long, however, you give up the frame 1 j.2c and become potentially susceptible to things like jabs (or hell, AAs). I do believe there is a sweet spot in the middle where everything works out nicely, however.

You can actually use the early super jump and take advantage of the fact that late techs will cross under you to punish forward rolls, especially since the difference in timing is very subtle. You can sort of option select here by entering the Tsubaki as j.63214c, which will turn into j.2c Zantetsu in the event that you catch a forward roll. Not comboing into the corner, but still... this does not work i'm not sure why i thought that connected

The setup catches back rolls just fine.

Also... There isn't a gap between IB j.2C and Tsubaki or Renka. The worst I could see happening is if they skipped emergency tech and did neutral instead, the j.2C would whiff and the timing is probably wrong to get any mixup on frame 1 after that. I did not test that extensively tho!

Edited July 26, 2011 by zreb

[zreb]

Not related to current discussion: according to http://www.tougeki.com/prelim?id=6900 , A92 is qualified for SBO !!

[SansProtocol]

I almost thought that there wasn't going to be a Hakumen player that qualified for a minute. This makes me super happy now. Thanks for the update!

[IndigoNovember]

A92? I can't say I've heard of him before, though that's probably not too surprising since I'm new to fighting games and all (only really heard of FT and PRFARMY being decent Hakumen). Anybody know anything about him or has a match video of him?

[zreb]

A92? I can't say I've heard of him before, though that's probably not too surprising since I'm new to fighting games and all (only really heard of FT and PRFARMY being decent Hakumen). Anybody know anything about him or has a match video of him?

There's a couple of vids of him in the video thread main post. These are the only cs2 ones:

A92:

Haku v.e Noel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8m6sGzwSjg#t=7m45s

Haku v.s Litchi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0XnVt_jJAI#t=8m30s

[IndigoNovember]

There's a couple of vids of him in the video thread main post. These are the only cs2 ones:

Ah, must have missed them, thanks for the heads up.

[SansProtocol]

I'm leaving for a trip to Tallahassee for a few days so if anyone has a character they want a match-up report for, let me know now as I will do them then. Or any specific write-up you may have in mind.

[SlyRoyale]

I have just thought of some changes that could make Hakumen rise through the tier ranks faster than Usain Bolt doing the 100m dash.

-make j.D a viable combo-starter tool again

-return FC properties to 4C

-grant Akumetsu (Hakumen's Astral) the ability to block projectiles

j.D used to be a great combo starter and a viable counter for its mid/high block properties, and being a jump move allows the player to evade lows. Thanks to j.D being nerfed, you can no longer combo off it and your opponent lands a little too close to you for my liking. The FC property in 4C was great for stopping rush-downs before they could happen and punish your opponents for it, but this might be a grey area considering the range of the attack (one of the best pokes in the game, even better than 6C). As for Akumetsu, it should block everything--NO EXCEPTIONS. Physicals, throws, projectiles...the whole nine yards. This Astral is difficult to pull off against cautious opponents, and the Astral is meant to be the ultimate punish.

/butthurt scrubbiness?

[Schneider-X]

I'm leaving for a trip to Tallahassee for a few days so if anyone has a character they want a match-up report for, let me know now as I will do them then. Or any specific write-up you may have in mind.

Could you do a Platinum write-up? A tournament is coming up soon and the local Platinum player gives me trouble.

[zreb]

I have just thought of some changes that could make Hakumen rise through the tier ranks faster than Usain Bolt doing the 100m dash.

-make j.D a viable combo-starter tool again

-return FC properties to 4C

-grant Akumetsu (Hakumen's Astral) the ability to block projectiles

j.D used to be a great combo starter and a viable counter for its mid/high block properties, and being a jump move allows the player to evade lows. Thanks to j.D being nerfed, you can no longer combo off it and your opponent lands a little too close to you for my liking. The FC property in 4C was great for stopping rush-downs before they could happen and punish your opponents for it, but this might be a grey area considering the range of the attack (one of the best pokes in the game, even better than 6C). As for Akumetsu, it should block everything--NO EXCEPTIONS. Physicals, throws, projectiles...the whole nine yards. This Astral is difficult to pull off against cautious opponents, and the Astral is meant to be the ultimate punish.

/butthurt scrubbiness?

I don't feel like j.D needs to be the most rewarding parry like it was in CS1. Comboability would be nice, however. What I'd rather see instead is for parries to have better proration so that they have more corner presence and so that the option to use meter on them for more damage is there. It pretty much (generally) feels like when I spend meter on parries, all I've done is gotten rid of stars that I'm not getting back.

Has 4C ever been FC...? I feel like FC would be strange for it given that it has such poor proration anyway.

Haku's astral will pretty much never be practical if we're talking realistically since it is so easy to bait out and punish. If you are playing people who become overly cautious when you have 8 stars, then you should probably be taking advantage of that and going on the offensive instead of fishing for a parry.

Edited July 30, 2011 by zreb

[SansProtocol]

Could you do a Platinum write-up? A tournament is coming up soon and the local Platinum player gives me trouble.

I am happy I have this new web plan on my phone so I can check up on posts. XD I will do it after I finish Carl's. I will put those two and my finished Tsubaki & Taokaka write-ups pn the boards when I get home tonight.

[SlyRoyale]

I don't feel like j.D needs to be the most rewarding parry like it was in CS1. Comboability would be nice, however. What I'd rather see instead is for parries to have better proration so that they have more corner presence and so that the option to use meter on them for more damage is there. It pretty much (generally) feels like when I spend meter on parries, all I've done is gotten rid of stars that I'm not getting back.

At the very least j.D could be given the same opportunity for comboability like the other Drive attacks. Proration definitely needs a bit of improvement, too.

Has 4C ever been FC...? I feel like FC would be strange for it given that it has such poor proration anyway.

4C caused FC in CS1 (Version 1.02). It was great for punishing Sledging Tagers (if timed right) and impending rushes from characters like Jin, Ragna, and Noel.

Haku's astral will pretty much never be practical if we're talking realistically since it is so easy to bait out and punish. If you are playing people who become overly cautious when you have 8 stars, then you should probably be taking advantage of that and going on the offensive instead of fishing for a parry.

As long as it can block projectiles in the future, I will be a happy (and less butthurt, lol) Hakumen. You're right about using the meter to go on the offensive against cautious players. They may not expect a rushdown from a character whose moveset is reliant on his meter.

And while I'm at it, would it be too much to ask if Hakumen was given his sixth primer back (Ver. 1.00), along with changing the cooldown for using certain specials to 120 frames for 2-magatama moves and 150 frames for 3-magatama moves (both 2-and-3-magatama moves currently have 180 frames of cooldown)?

[SansProtocol]

At the very least j.D could be given the same opportunity for comboability like the other Drive attacks. Proration definitely needs a bit of improvement, too.

The reason j.D is like that is to set Hakumen's lower mobility in stone. What I mean to say is that in CS1, you could easily get by Hakumen's slow ground movement by air dashing around and using the threat of j.D to prevent someone from doing anything about it. In CS2, you get guaranteed damage and the risky chance to make your jump-ins safe. That's all j.D should do and for it to do anymore would basically negate why Hakumen has those weird little hops in the first place.

4C caused FC in CS1 (Version 1.02). It was great for punishing Sledging Tagers (if timed right) and impending rushes from characters like Jin, Ragna, and Noel.

Seems like the uses of FC 4C in 1.02 were improved on by making it able to be special-cancelled.

As long as it can block projectiles in the future, I will be a happy (and less butthurt, lol) Hakumen. You're right about using the meter to go on the offensive against cautious players. They may not expect a rushdown from a character whose moveset is reliant on his meter.

And while I'm at it, would it be too much to ask if Hakumen was given his sixth primer back (Ver. 1.00), along with changing the cooldown for using certain specials to 120 frames for 2-magatama moves and 150 frames for 3-magatama moves (both 2-and-3-magatama moves currently have 180 frames of cooldown)?

• If you are using that Astral enough to get this worked up about, you could have used that meter from other things most any other time.
  
• I do understand the pain of not having the sixth guard primer, I really do. However with that much health and a burst to blow, I would give him 2 guard primers after a burst as a game designer as well. Bursts are used as a last resort and having three whole primers makes it feel less like that.
  
• The cooldown at that specific duration is usually there for a reason. The rest of the cast suffers from the reduced gain of Heat after using 25% or more of it at a time. Yes, Hakumen's auto-gain is stopped but having reduced cooldown like that would increase his heat gain exponentially (more auto-gain and more heat gained elsewhere), which would allow you much more meter than you should ever need.
  

Edited July 31, 2011 by SansProtocol

[zreb]

4C caused FC in CS1 (Version 1.02). It was great for punishing Sledging Tagers (if timed right) and impending rushes from characters like Jin, Ragna, and Noel.

I loaded up this and every other version on CS. 4C has FC on none of them--it isn't listed in the frame data, either.

[WolfCrimson]

4C has never been FC. It only had a huge hitstun on CH, that's it.

Edit: Personally I feel Hakumen is fine as he is right now, excluding his damage. He only needs to dish out higher damage. Like if they gave him 65% character prorate, he'd be better. And also, give his Zantetsu a 120% bonus prorate (maybe on the second hit? or first hit, I dunno really), to see it have more use in combos would be nice.

EDIT EDIT: Oh yeah, and give him his old 2A start-up speed .

Edited July 31, 2011 by WolfCrimson

[LuminAbyss]

Damage was the one thing that really really made me feel bad for Hakumen this time around. Like, in CS, his damage output kinda pissed me off = w=; But now it just makes me feel bad. I hope they fix this in the next update without making him CS1 level.