[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

Hakumen's combos operate a bit differently from the rest of the cast because of the way he uses meter. Fact is, the starter doesn't determine thatI think Mac originally had the idea of going by star use way back when we decided to make the CS1 combo thread. I now see the light of reason and repent. :<

First Makoto, now this. Nobody escapes my grasp.

Nobody.

Anyway, if you want to take a crack at it, go ahead. I just listed it by starter since I figured people would want to see what they could do off each move, and would put together the common strings from just common sense / observation. Plus with all the different starters you have different meter gain and uses and damage... so my head exploded trying to figure out how to convey that all in one batch instead of separately.

[zreb]

From http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?10783-The-Critique-my-Hakumen-Thread&p=1002175&viewfull=1#post1002175 :

alright mr smarty pants spark you ARE wrong with that very first combo now granted off the 6a gaurd stun that combo does less BUT doing it off the 5c DOES get more then 2100k if you do 5c>623aa>j.b>j.2a>5c NOT that janked combo you thought i meant.. so that combo jus stated im pretty sure get anywhere fro 2600-3k try it for yourself if you dont belive me

It's 2770. That's closer to 3k than the 6a version is, but now that the name of the game is 5c, it's not anywhere close to the 3600 you get off the standard enma combo. Can you not do the enma bnb? I can think of no other reason for your irrational aversion to it.

I feel like you should be the one testing this stuff, not us.

Edited April 24, 2011 by zreb

[Sophisticat]

but what im really interested in,and this is probably cuz i havent been able to play in a lil bit and its 2 in the morning but what combo can you do with 1 magitama without a counter gets 2.7k?

Almost any move of Haku's on CH -> 3c -> 2b -> Gurren -> hop 5b -> j.a-b -> dj.2a -> dj.C.

Damage varies depending on starter, but average is between 2.5-2.7k.

[zreb]

5c>623aa>jb>jc>j.2a>j.c then it does 3300 everytime on every character.

Okay, I see what you're doing now. This is why you're wrong:

You're training with the "Infinity" option enabled. Hakumen has a % damage increase while in Mugen state. The combos that you think do 3.3k will not do 3.3k in a real match.

The standard enma combo does 4.2k easily with Mugen active.

Edited April 25, 2011 by zreb

[Sophisticat]

So, who's up to doing the CS2 combo thread? I think it's time we set something up.

I wouldn't mind doing it myself, but it'll likely turn into "Sophisticat's CS2 Hakumen Combo Thread". I can assure you guys that's not a bad thing.

I'm willing to put in the work to make it nice and organized, and I've been thinking of a singular way of sorting combos. I have come to the conclusion that Hakumen's combos are now a bit more unique in function than the rest of the cast. Meter management guarantees this.

So, instead of listing combos by stars, starter, or whatever, let's make a list of common "strings", with the following factors dictating how a combo would be put together:

- # of stars

- Starter move

- Situation

Example 1

Haku has two fairly common strings:

1) Dustloop: [stuff] -> Enma -> j.2c -> 2c -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.C

2) Hop pickup: [stuff] -> Gurren -> hop 5a/b -> j.a-b -> dj.2a -> dj.C

However, you can also do something like [stuff] -> Enma -> j.2c -> 5c -> 5c -> gurren -> hop 5a -> etc.

Using the notation I have in mind, we'd get:

5c -> (1, j.2c) -> 5c -> (2)

Signifying that you do dustloop starting with 5c up to j.2c, then do 5c, then into hop pickup.

Yeah, it might be a bit too complicated, but I think it's intuitive once you get used to it, especially with how long his combos get now.

Example 2

(3) Corner starter: [stuff] -> renka(1) -> kishuu -> 6c

(4) Corner loop: [stuff] -> 2c -> j.2a -> j.2c

(5) Standard corner ender: [stuff] -> j.2a -> delay j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.C -> 5c [-> Shippu]

New corner bnb would now be:

5c -> (3) -> (4) x3 -> (5)

Nice, simple, and effective. It's then easy to say something like "2a starter changes this combo to (4) x1".

Now, the thing about these strings is that they're optimal, so what you're doing is putting together optimal strings that would correspond well to the starter you chose, your positions on-screen, what you wish to achieve with the combo, etc.

Btw, combo pieces don't have to be given a number, something distinctive like "Dustloop" or "corner loop" would be good too.

What do you guys think? Good idea in theory, or terrible in practice?

[seyu]

I like the idea with the numbers. it looks neat and clean. One would have to be very careful though, not to missplace combo parts, or else people will try to do combos not even possible.

Id also suggest a separation of combos into midscreen, corner. if a combo brings your opponent to the corner after one "string" one could make a branching path with a possible corner combo.

the stars could be noted at the end.

Also: the way you put it down it would end in beeing sorted by starters, i think. like in example 1, unless youd want to write [stuff] for every combo. since starters are what makes the strings later in the combo fit, youd need to put them down anyway and if you got them already you could also just sort the combos by starters, too.

i think its a great idea an will definetly raise combo searching efficiency

[mAc Chaos]

Reminds me of how they do it on zetaboards, but it looks confusing too. I liked the way I did it before because you could just go down to the starter you wanted and see the whole combo right there. This way makes it so you have to practically do a math problem every time you want to find a combo...

That's just my thought though. Either way it'll work out and I'll still use it to find combos.

[zreb]

Example 2 seems easier to keep up with than example 1, especially if you reserve numbers for only very common "pieces" and then just let exceptions be exceptions with standard notation.

I am all for looking for a cleaner way to represent combos for our purposes, but I also feel like it would be good if standard notation could be included in the actual combo thread for beginners so they aren't overwhelmed with information. Those of us that play Hakumen a lot shouldn't have issues remembering what numbers correlate to what combo strings since we know what they are from playing him a bunch.

And yeah, it could also end up being kind of messy, but I feel like it's worth taking for a spin.

[Re4L14124c]

don't separate it into midscreen/corner. Instead, put a note in each combo saying if it's applicable midscreen, corner, or anywhere. Less clutter.

[Sophisticat]

Ok, I'll see about writing up a template this weekend. If you guys like it, we can run with it. If not, there's always the traditional way.

Two things: "corner" and "midscreen" notations, and "going by starter move instead".

For the first, we'd still separate combos by their position. But with my method, there'd be more flexibility in determining what you want to do with a combo. For example, you could say "5c -> (1) -> (2) is standard midscreen bnb, but switch out (2) for (3) if you're close enough to go into the corner".

(It'd really look something more like this:

Midscreen

Bnb:

5c -> (2) [-> (3) for corner])

It's a rough idea, but you get the idea. :P

Now, about starter move. The thing about the traditional method is that Haku's common strings can be started from a lot of his moves. On CH, for example, just about everything goes into standard Dustloop, and the only thing different is the damage. It's actually fairly common that his moves can do just about every combo he has, so starter becomes a bit irrelevant. With the new method, you'd first list the string, then list which starter it works for, then how each starter affects the combo. It sounds like more work, but with the idea above, you're listing a lot less combos than before so it should come out as less work overall.

There is the idea that listing by starter makes it easy to find the combo you want. This could actually be a problem. Thing is, when you have only a couple stars, which starter you use becomes more important than the # of stars. I'll brainstorm here for a bit to find an elegant solution.

The idea I have is also very "alpha" since I only thought of it yesterday (though it was a long time coming). :P I'll see about optimizing it for readability and "making sense". If it ends up worse than the traditional method for whatever reason, I'll just scrap it.

[Schneider-X]

I think it would be cleaner to go by terms instead of numbers. I think it would be easier for beginners to read through it.

[banshee]

I think it would be cleaner to go by terms instead of numbers. I think it would be easier for beginners to read through it.

This. Numbers collide with the directions for the moves. I'd prefer something like this.

Nice idea though, let's get started with the brainstorming for CS2.

[Sophisticat]

Alright! I got around to typing up a template. I think it looks good, but I don't know about you guys.

A couple things:

- Common strings should be the ones abbreviated. If there's something different about it in a new combo, just write it out normally then include what's different.

- Let's use names for the common strings, as suggested. It's cleaner and easier to remember. I don't think we should do the same for generic combos since there's a lot more of them. I'm still throwing around ideas here.

- Strings will be explicitly denoted by star use. However, regular combos will go by situation (midscreen, corner, etc.), then be listed by star use. Additional notes will accompany them if necessary.

- You will note that I'm gunning for these to be optimal combos. I don't see any reason to list anything else in the main section, which is why I added a supplementary "misc. combo" section for other stuff that might be cool or interesting, but you won't make regular use of it.

- For names, something simple and easy to remember is best. I'm not too at naming, so suggestions are cool.

Thoughts? All feedback is appreciated.

Welcome to the CS2 Hakumen Combo Thread!

[insert generic filler that explains stuff for newbies. Includes notations and stuff]

This time around, we will be proceeding to list Hakumen's combos a bit differently. To shorten the length of his combo notations and to take into account the numerous new flexibilities of his combos, his common strings will be abbreviated by name.

Example:

5c -> Dustloop

5c denotes the starter move used (since many of Haku's normals go into this combo), and then the combo string in . Nice, clean, and effective. Once you are familiar with Hakumen's combos, this notation becomes a breeze to use.

List of Common Strings

1) Dustloop: [starter] -> Enma -> j.2c -> 2c -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.C

This is Hakumen's main bnb. Learn it well because it is the backbone to all his other setups. You may read how to do it here: [link to Spark's post]

• Normal starters: 5a (CH), 6a, 2b, 5b, 4c (CH), 5c, and all air normals.
  
• Special starters: Gurren, Hotaru (take out Enma), Renka(1), Zantetsu [-> 5c].
  
  
  Meterless Strings
  
  
  2) 5a juggle: [starter] -> 5a -> 6a -> 5a -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.C
  
  
  • Possible starters are: 5a (AA), Gurren wall bounce.
    
    
    1-Star Strings
    
    
    3) Hop Pickup
    
    [...]
    
    
    3-Star Strings
    
    
    [...]
    
    Counters
    
    
    [...]
    
    

    Optimal CS2 Combo List

    
    
    
    Mid-screen
    
    
    Mid-screen, Hakumen does not deal much damage without spending precious magatama. The main focus of mid-screen combos should be corner carry as his big damage can be found in the corner. He still has some very useful combos, however.
    
    (1) Hop pickup
    
    

    • Damage: ~2000.
      
      (2) Standard Dustloop
      
      
      • Damage: ~2000 to 3000.

    (4) Double 5c: [Dustloop starter] -> Enma -> j.2c -> 5c -> 5c -> Dustloop.

    [*]The link is tricky. A 5b starter is preferable since Hakumen hugs the opponent's hitbox during the Enma jump arc. You want to hit j.2c as low as possible, and 5c should hit with the tip of the sword. The trick to this combo is the low j.2c..

    [*]Damage: ~3000 to 4000.

    [...]

    (5) Hotaru Nutter: Renka drop -> 2c -> Forward TK Hotaru -> Hotaru bnb.

    [i'm making up some names here just to show how it would look like, obviously]

    [*]Damage: Over 5000.

    Corner

    Other/Misc. Combos

    This section is for all other combos which may have interesting features, but aren't optimal.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Sophisticat

[Sophisticat]

No one?

Well, I'll take that positively, so I'll be posting up the new CS2 combo thread sometime this afternoon.

This will have to be a collaborative project, of course, since CS2 combos are new and different and all that.

[banshee]

No one?

Hm, in general I like your idea. Regarding your list, though - let's say I want to find out what to do after a CH 3C... where would I find that information?

On another note, here's a little something:

(0) 2D > 2C > jc. > j.2A > ad > j.2A > j.C (1996)

(0) 6D > j.2C > 2C > j.2A > ad > j.2A > j.C (2410) - might need to walk forward a bit or jump cancel a hop, needs confirmation

Corner:

(0) Throw > 2C > sjc. > j.2A > j.2C > 2C > jc. > j.2A > j.2A > ad > j.2A > j.C > 5C > 3C (3130) - skip 3C for better Oki

[Sophisticat]

That's still something I'm working out since I'm going with the idea that the starter does not matter much. For now, I'm planning on listing starters with the combo.

EDIT: Just had an idea here, I'll make a table that lists all of Haku's normals and then number the combos. The combo he should do after X move will then be easy to determine.

Thanks for the combos, I'll add e'm.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Sophisticat

[Re4L14124c]

EDIT: Just had an idea here, I'll make a table that lists all of Haku's normals and then number the combos. The combo he should do after X move will then be easy to determine.

It looks like it will be very easy to use, I approve of this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTNVtHpohwE#t=4m20s YASU vs. tenchi

That first round combo was cool

Edited May 4, 2011 by Re4L14124c

[Sophisticat]

I don't know, I thought it was a good idea at first, but now I'm not so sure. It could easily end up being a lot of unnecessary work. I think I'll just go at it iteratively and see what works eventually once we get up more combos on the list.

Btw, the full combo of the bit you posted is:

Hotaru FC -> IAD j.2c -> 2c -> sj.2c -> Tsubaki -> AD j.2c -> 2c -> sj.2a -> j.2c -> 2c -> sj.2a -> j.2c -> 2c -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.C -> 5c.

Or: Hotaru FC -> IAD j.2c -> 2c -> sj.2c -> Mid-Air Tsubaki -> Corner Loop (2).

(Though the version I'm familiar with uses 5c in-between corner loops for a 5c/2c link. I simply abbreviated the above for simplicity)

Edited May 5, 2011 by Sophisticat

[Spark]

I've cleaned up the match up sub forum because of CS2 coming out, so all the old threads have been moved to the archive board.

I'll try to have a thread up for each match up by the end of the day. Though there really isn't much for me to say because I've had the game for like a week.

[Dan_br]

Hi, guys!

I am having problems with TK Hotaru. What's the best way to do it? I turn on the input history in training mode, i do the exact input (2367 or 2368 or 2369 b) and a renka comes out, or i simply do a hj.b, and sometimes TK hotaru comes out. I don't know if the speed of my execution influeces or if my stick sucks (i use a mayflash). I don't have any problem with TK Tsubaki, i can easily do it. =(

sorry, my english sucks.

[mAc Chaos]

If you got CS2, that shouldn't be a problem anymore since they changed Renka's input to 236b.

Otherwise, if Renka comes out, that means you pressed B too fast. You have to pause just a little bit to give Hakumen time to leave the ground. What happens is you hit 2147b, basically, or even 2147 and then hit B before Hakumen has left the ground, so the game just looks at 2147b and then compares it to his moves and sees it is closest to Renka and just goes with that.

If j.B comes out, you waited too long to hit B or didn't make the 2147 input correctly.

Edited May 17, 2011 by mAc Chaos

[Rudi]

The input for TK Hotaru is 2147/8/9, not 2367/8/9.

[mAc Chaos]

lol, oops. Yeah. FIXED. Still thinking of Hotaru and Renka inputs as the same thing.

[Arcknight]

Hey guys. I was wondering if you could provide any input on the Noel vs. Hakumen match-up in the Noel forum. Information like match rating and things that blow up Haku a lot. Corrections are welcome too. I just haven't had too much experience in CS2 and hardly any at all with this match. I figured a few of you with more experience could provide some words of wisdom. Thanks!

[MAdBater]

Turtle , runaway and wait for a punish on noel because she is faster. Expert opinion jk. People on the forum probably give you better advice but rushdown characters keep them out of that super close range if you can.

Although the damage that Hakumen dishes out may not be as good as Noel's is and his Drive Counters may not be at the level that they were in CS1, his gameplan is still the same. Stay patient, use counters sparingly, and block/punish unsafe moves like 3C.