[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[bungcalero]

hello everyone im new to the hakumen board and actually still trying to be decent with him game play

wise im a mediocre at using him. I just managed to learn hakumen's bnb even the hop hotaru that is punishing my fingers. CSex is coming out will they drastically change his BnB combo just like they did to my other char taokaka who was very different from her CT counter part. I do feel however that he will not be that drastically change because I still recognized some of his bnb from CT completely re-learning a char is hard.

[Moblin]

8k "full combo?" That probably means his corner BnB or something. And probably started with 5c, and the hotaru ---j2c---5c version. But who knows? It'd be nice to be high/top tier again, that's for sure. And welcome to the boards bungcalero, I'm newish as well although I've been avidly playing since CT.

[mAc Chaos]

Meh. We'll see.

[entnervt]

I often read stuff like "oh, Haku`s toptier again - now I`ll play him again". Why don`t play a char if he/her isn`t braindead to play?

[Arcknight]

I have always played the same characters!

That said, I am very impressed with these changes. Hakumen might just be a steam-roller with all that meter. Even getting damage buffs on a couple of his pokes is pretty nice too(since they are air-unblockable). Hotaru not taking a primer is hardly a big deal either. I rarely get a guard crush with him anyways. Although it was nice to have that. I can live without it.

[Sophisticat]

I often read stuff like "oh, Haku`s toptier again - now I`ll play him again". Why don`t play a char if he/her isn`t braindead to play?

I think it's less that he's now top tier that you now get back the freedom you had in CS1. Not being limited so much by star count like in CS2 means you can do a lot more things now and that's a lot less frustrating to deal with. You don't have to constantly worry about whether or not you have enough stars or if that whiff will cost you a game-winning combo or something.

Being top tier is just icing on the cake. A good player would be good regardless of Haku's level -- just look at Spark's win at EVO.

[Arcknight]

I think Spark being a robot helped him immensely. Joking aside, I will enjoy being able to use a few more specials during pressure without killing my meter.

Question though: Is the new meter cool down fast enough to gain a full star back should a counter occur shortly after a 2mag+ special? If it is that would be delicious.

[Schneider-X]

Question though: Is the new meter cool down fast enough to gain a full star back should a counter occur shortly after a 2mag+ special? If it is that would be delicious.

If you activate the counter after the 90 frames (1.5 secs) cooldown period then you'll gain the full star, same as in CS2 when you had to wait for the cooldown period to finish.

I personally enjoyed hakumen being a bit weaker just because it really showed alot of dedication in CS2 to be good. You had to know when to burn meter for damage or corner carry and when was the best time to use hotaru. Now it looks like you'll always have hotaru on standby and won't need to do worry much about meter management.

[BladeOfJustice7]

The way hakumen is as a character, it won't be easy for him to become brain dead. NO matter how good his buffs are, if you mash counter, you'll die. Simple.

I do think he'll become easier to play and win with, but I don't see him beyond a tier, probably will fall into b tier as months go by.

[Fluck]

The way hakumen is as a character, it won't be easy for him to become brain dead. NO matter how good his buffs are, if you mash counter, you'll die. Simple.

I do think he'll become easier to play and win with, but I don't see him beyond a tier, probably will fall into b tier as months go by.

I think he'll be solid S for the whole game.

Of course it's still way too early to tell for sure, so it's just my own personal prediction.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Fluck

[zdravkelja]

I think it's less that he's now top tier that you now get back the freedom you had in CS1. Not being limited so much by star count like in CS2 means you can do a lot more things now and that's a lot less frustrating to deal with. You don't have to constantly worry about whether or not you have enough stars or if that whiff will cost you a game-winning combo or something.

Being top tier is just icing on the cake. A good player would be good regardless of Haku's level -- just look at Spark's win at EVO.

This. I hated to manage stars so strictly. I've always played him and Bang. But I'll probably be more serious about him now.

And it looks like he is really a steam roller, as he should has always been

[Moblin]

Are you basing that assumption off of anything? Are there videos of any hakus up? Didn't see any on Jourdal and ptkazn123's channels yet.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I think he'll be solid S for the whole game.

Of course it's still way too early to tell for sure, so it's just my own personal prediction.

He's S in Spark's hands, regardless of what tools he has. But as long as hakumen players don't block and mash counters instead of learning to deal with pressure. He won't be "S tier" anytime soon. For me S tier is exmode steamrolling through the competition, I don't think he'll have the capacity to do that. Since you know, you gotta actually THINK when you play him, not flowchart when you play him.

[Fluck]

He's S in Spark's hands, regardless of what tools he has. But as long as hakumen players don't block and mash counters instead of learning to deal with pressure. He won't be "S tier" anytime soon. For me S tier is exmode steamrolling through the competition, I don't think he'll have the capacity to do that. Since you know, you gotta actually THINK when you play him, not flowchart when you play him.

Do you think Spark is the best player in the world? People do not claim CS2 Bang is S Tier just cause Dora steamrolls people with him, individual skill has nothing to do with it.

So, let's say we have an S-Tier character with a shoryuken, like CS1 Litchi. As long as Litchi players don't block and mash Tsubame Gaeshi instead of learning to deal with pressure, CS1 Litchi wouldn't have been 'S Tier' any time soon! What's the difference between this and a Hakumen mashing D? Weak players do not mean the character is weak.

You're fooling yourself if you think that Dora and Satoshi didn't think with Bang in CS1.

As for why I believe he will be S tier:

- Meter gauge buff is a strong overall buff cause it gives him better mix-up, damage, and tools.

- He has gained even more tools against zoners with projectile-invulnerable Kishuu, making it basically impossible to zone him out compared to CS2.

- Increase in damage due to more stars and things like j.B -> j.2A gatling, as well as better proration. Midscreen damage is high now, which is a huge difference from CS2 where he was inferior to so other characters midscreen or even near the corner. Reward is unbelievably high in the corner if you trust what stunedge says.

- He gained back an anti-air, basically making his defensive game as complete as it reasonably could be.

Almost all his weaknesses from CS2 were removed. The only problems are the lack of a true DP and average mix-up. These aren't so deadly because for the first point, he has counters, and for the second, he is designed defensively. So, these problems aren't significant enough to drop him below S. Note that this IS my personal opinion and could easily be wrong. I made sure to say so in my first post.

[entnervt]

As for why I believe he will be S tier:

- Meter gauge buff is a strong overall buff cause it gives him better mix-up, damage, and tools.

Better but not amazing mix up. Hakumen`s mix up can get predictable. "Hooo, another tk214C..."

- He has gained even more tools against zoners with projectile-invulnerable Kishuu, making it basically impossible to zone him out compared to CS2.

- Increase in damage due to more stars and things like j.B -> j.2A gatling, as well as better proration. Midscreen damage is high now, which is a huge difference from CS2 where he was inferior to so other characters midscreen or even near the corner. Reward is unbelievably high in the corner if you trust what stunedge says.

The p-invul is surely extreme useful vs Lambda and maybe Mu. Well timed and you could approach Hazama already before the buff. And EVERY char can shred your ass, if you`re cornered, so that doesn`t make Hakumen S-tier. Midscreen-dmg-buff? Nice, but you still have to deal that dmg before you can party about it.

- He gained back an anti-air, basically making his defensive game as complete as it reasonably could be.

6A with head-invul is surely nice, but afair was it not spamable back in CT. It needed to be well timed.

Almost all his weaknesses from CS2 were removed. The only problems are the lack of a true DP and average mix-up. These aren't so deadly because for the first point, he has counters, and for the second, he is designed defensively. So, these problems aren't significant enough to drop him below S. Note that this IS my personal opinion and could easily be wrong. I made sure to say so in my first post.

Now what? First you say he has a better mix up (where?) and then you say he lacks in average mix up (true). The missing of average mix up is enough for not being S-tier. And of course is that not deadly, he wasn`t really bad in CS2. But his counters are not a compensation to missing mix up-potential, even if he`s designed defensively. He won`t drop below S because he isn`t S.

[kotokot]

he have best frametraps, best burstbait, very good specials, very good normals, catches, good damage, good corner carry combos. You cant go autopilot with him, you must think and guess what will do opponent. Same goes for playing versus hakumen, he is very hard to deal even in cs2. He is hard to use and have bad mixups/blockstrings. Though mixups are not that bad, fuzzy guard setups, safejumps, canceling dash into renka/zantetsu(lol)/tsubaki/hotaru.

btw kishuu still have body/head invul?

[Arcknight]

The only "mix-up" I think he gained is from a more liberal use of specials for pressuring. I am not even sure how 6A functioned in CT. It was so long ago. Although, I am in general, bad at timing anti-airs.

[Fluck]

Better but not amazing mix up. Hakumen`s mix up can get predictable. "Hooo, another tk214C..."

That's...what I said.

The p-invul is surely extreme useful vs Lambda and maybe Mu. Well timed and you could approach Hazama already before the buff. And EVERY char can shred your ass, if you`re cornered, so that doesn`t make Hakumen S-tier. Midscreen-dmg-buff? Nice, but you still have to deal that dmg before you can party about it.

Are you seriously comparing Hakumen's 8k in the corner when most members of the cast get 4k? Also, yes, you have to deal the damage. So, you're saying Hakumen has an inability to deal damage? He's not a rushdown character, he doesn't rely only on mix-up to get damage.

6A with head-invul is surely nice, but afair was it not spamable back in CT. It needed to be well timed.

You need to time all anti-airs.

Now what? First you say he has a better mix up (where?) and then you say he lacks in average mix up (true). The missing of average mix up is enough for not being S-tier. And of course is that not deadly, he wasn`t really bad in CS2. But his counters are not a compensation to missing mix up-potential, even if he`s designed defensively. He won`t drop below S because he isn`t S.

He has a better mix-up because he has more stars to use compared to CS2. However, 'better' does not mean 'amazing'. Hence what I said. CT Nu had average mix-up but she was surely S Tier. I know you're going to say CT Nu was much more broken than CSE Hakumen, but that's to illustrate my point. Or how about CS2 Noel? Her mix-up wasn't the best either. I would put CSE Hakumen on the same RELATIVE scale as CS2 Noel. He's not as strong as her but he's going to be in her tier placing in this game. Counters are to compensate for not having a DP, not mix-up.

Responses in bold D:

[BladeOfJustice7]

Lol this is pointless guys. Arguing about this isn't gonna get anywhere until maybe a month or so. I just don't want him to flowchart material. I still wanna earn my wins.

Regardless I think we can all agree he looks like a solid character now, without any glaring weaknesses. But is it confirmed he still has projectile invincibility on kishuu? I haven't seen any confirmation of him still having it since the loketests.

[Arcknight]

Of any character I think he's the least likely to become auto-pilot. Personal opinion here.

[Sophisticat]

Haku doesn't even need mixup. He's designed around feints, yomi, traps, counters, etc. Work fundamentals with him and he's plenty fine in this area.

Anyway, this is the only real consideration you need for his current strength:

- Meter gauge buff is a strong overall buff cause it gives him better mix-up, damage, and tools.

I'll clarify this point, however:

Almost all his weaknesses from CS2 were removed. The only problems are the lack of a true DP and average mix-up.

His DP is Hotaru. You could say it lacks invincible startup, but eh... 4f startup is already pretty good for a move of Hotaru's strength.

Average mixup is meaningless since he doesn't need it as he's not a rushdown character. He trips up the others with the above-mentioned tools. You'd be surprised how often it works even on good players. He's not the "Void" only in name; it reflects in his style as well.

Also, his weakness is getting zoned or out-spaced. Lambda/Mu/Hazama trouble him plenty, as do Litchi/Ragna if you're not paying attention.

[Darkside937]

It's WAY too early to start estimating tier placement--we have zero hands on experience (obviously) and haven't even seen footage. Right now we're just going on a few second-hand reports and theory fighter approximations. Give it a month or so, when people start figuring both Hakumen and CSE out in general, before trying to place him; otherwise, you might as well be throwing darts on a board.

With that said, I have high hopes.

I'm pumped about:

- Head inv. 6A is exactly what he needs as a good AA, though I highly doubt it will be anywhere near as stupid as CT 6A (which gained HA inv. in 3 frames, yet recovered fast enough that you could still catch people with a second 6A if they tried to bait the first with a double jump. It was retardedly spammable, lol). I mentioned before that head inv. 6A would be useless as an AA if you couldn't combo from it, so I'm pleased that CH 6A > 5C is possible.

- Reports of better cooldown/more meter in general are EXCELLENT. This is probably my biggest complaint with CS2 Haku. His pressure is already subpar compared to everyone else in the cast, but it's really crippled when you have next to zero expendable meter for mixup.

- I'm also really, really happy with the damage buff. I posted before about how counter-intuitive his design was in CS2. In CT and CS1, his purpose seemed clear to me: a heavy-hitting power character, with the tradeoff that he needed to spend meter for everything (pressure, mixup, damage, etc). In CS2, he had to spend a lot of meter, sometimes 50% (4 stars) or more just to keep up damage-wise with other characters that got that damage easier (via better mixup options) while GAINING nearly that much meter.

- Regarding mixup, it's nice to see that throw is special cancelable again. Hooray for being able to get damage midscreen instead of giving them a "force Hakumen to get back in/get out of jail nearly free" card.

- Proj. inv. Kishuu will be REALLY nice for the Lambda matchup. I wonder if it can go through Hazama's chains? I know they're technically classified as both physical and projectile, so I'm not sure, but it would be pretty cool if you can. Sounds useful for baiting bursts as well.

- Renka wallboucing midscreen is excellent. Sounds like we finally have a good cheap (read: 2 star) special to hit-confirm into from 2A/2B.

- Shippu changes. Faster startup and better minimum damage of any move is always welcomed.

I'm not pumped about:

- Hotaru not taking primers. There are certain matchups/certain playstyles where I like to go for guardbreaks, this will be slightly tougher now. This is also bad if they left the "6B doesn't take primers" change in from whichever loketest it was (which was a dumb idea anyway, since that's all 6B is good for). Not a big deal considering the buffs though.

I'm meh about:

- 4C changes. Again, unless they fixed Haku's hurtbox to make it a better poke, I think it will still be garbage. Charging it will just give them more time to throw out something better (Ragna's or Bang's 5Bs come to mind) and score an easy CH. That's assuming they don't just IAD over it to punch you in the face, or low profile it as some characters can (Noel, Tao, etc).

- JB changes. I gotta see how these play out first.

- JD damage buff. For his riskiest counter (in CH state until touching the ground + 12 frames of additional CH state afterwards), they would have to buff the damage a lot for me to see it worth using over 5D/6D.

[mjting]

I'm viewing these changes are sort of "fixes" just to make haku the character he was supposed to be. Nothing spectacularly ground breaking, nor were his combos changed and stuff, just gave him the stuff he literally lacked, Or he was supposed to have, or had already, but were executed in a half-assed way.

How was his damage buffed overall? the grab back to being special cancellable is really good news too!

[Fluck]

Haku doesn't even need mixup. He's designed around feints, yomi, traps, counters, etc. Work fundamentals with him and he's plenty fine in this area.

His DP is Hotaru. You could say it lacks invincible startup, but eh... 4f startup is already pretty good for a move of Hotaru's strength.

Average mixup is meaningless since he doesn't need it as he's not a rushdown character. He trips up the others with the above-mentioned tools. You'd be surprised how often it works even on good players. He's not the "Void" only in name; it reflects in his style as well.

Also, his weakness is getting zoned or out-spaced. Lambda/Mu/Hazama trouble him plenty, as do Litchi/Ragna if you're not paying attention.

As you said, what I mentioned are not major weaknesses but I had to point them out cause he has no flaws in any other areas. He is no longer weak to zoning in CSE.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Also, his weakness is getting zoned or out-spaced. Lambda/Mu/Hazama/Rachel trouble him plenty, as do Litchi/Ragna/Tager if you're not paying attention.

Agreed with what you pretty much said there Nolan. But Just added characters you forgot about, rachel you need to be well aware of spacing or you'll get zoned. And Tager unless you're 100% aware of your space you'll get command grabbed. You might think I'm retarded and free to tager, but if you check out the video thread. Hakumen got blown up quite a few times against tager.

How was his damage buffed overall? the grab back to being special cancellable is really good news too!

Apparently he's getting "8k combos". No idea where on the screen and off what starters though.

As you said, what I mentioned are not major weaknesses but I had to point them out cause he has no flaws in any other areas. He is no longer weak to zoning in CSE.

This is very true, and along with what Sans said. Makoto out damages hakumen off pretty much any hit, as well as hazama with or without meter (depending on the starter).

Oh yea, and the ability to handle zoning from kishuu is still in theory, we haven't seen him play nor can we test him. But let's hope so.

EDIT: You could already handle zoning from hazama, more so once he's on the ground. Kishuu/double kishuu, or IADj2c cover a lot and can punish a lot, especially 5/6d from hazama. You just have to be aware of his feints to determine what should be used.

Edited October 8, 2011 by BladeOfJustice7