[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[WallJumpMan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OghVlBxKQDU&feature=feedu#t=4m46s

stomp still breaks primers bitches

[dioxideUniversa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBlRkXZlYwg#t=9m24s

How do you do Hotaru this low? I've seen this a few times in match vids and they always land way, way sooner than when I do TK or hop Hotaru. Mine never look like this and it keeps me from taking the 2c combo path for it.

[mAc Chaos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OghVlBxKQDU&feature=feedu#t=4m46s

stomp still breaks primers bitches

that commentator sucks lol

[IndigoNovember]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OghVlBxKQDU&feature=feedu#t=4m46s

stomp still breaks primers bitches

Looks like only the second hit does. Interesting.

[Sophisticat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBlRkXZlYwg#t=9m24s

How do you do Hotaru this low? I've seen this a few times in match vids and they always land way, way sooner than when I do TK or hop Hotaru. Mine never look like this and it keeps me from taking the 2c combo path for it.

You'll notice he lands first.

TK Hotaru -> land -> IAD j.2c -> etc.

I prefer eschewing the second 2c for a 5a myself, makes it much easier.

[TheGreatReptar]

that commentator sucks lol

It could always be worse http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkjPLpinH9U

[dioxideUniversa]

You'll notice he lands first.

TK Hotaru -> land -> IAD j.2c -> etc.

I prefer eschewing the second 2c for a 5a myself, makes it much easier.

I realize you're supposed to land first. What I meant was that he lands much faster than when I do TK Hotaru, so my IAD doesn't get there fast enough and I can't do the j.2C delayed enough, etc. I experimented for a while with hitting B for Hotaru at different times, but if I put it out as early as possible it still takes much longer to land than he does in that clip.

I can't get hops to land that quickly, either.

[IndigoNovember]

I realize you're supposed to land first. What I meant was that he lands much faster than when I do TK Hotaru, so my IAD doesn't get there fast enough and I can't do the j.2C delayed enough, etc. I experimented for a while with hitting B for Hotaru at different times, but if I put it out as early as possible it still takes much longer to land than he does in that clip.

I can't get hops to land that quickly, either.

It sounds like you're jumping too high before you do Hotaru, which is kinda odd since 2147b (TK Hotaru) shouldn't put you too high.

[dioxideUniversa]

Okay, I did some more testing with this, and the results confuse me.

I recorded myself attempting to do TK Hotaru -> IAD -> j.2c -> 2c and it blue beated at the 2c. However, sometimes when I played it back, it did not blue beat and it looked just like the TK Hotaru in the video. Both were fatal counters off Ragna's 5d.

Below are two screen caps from the same recorded inputs (but not the same playback):

On the left is it working like in the video, and on the right is what I usually get (and also the way it looked when I actually recorded the inputs.) The left shows Hakumen landing far sooner than the cap on the right, where he is still falling.

What makes it work like on the left sometimes? The only difference was the fact that I had to manually 5D with Ragna. Does it depend on when it hits or something? Positioning?

edits for clarity

Edited October 24, 2011 by dioxideUniversa

[itsme]

The blue beat issue is most likely due to spacing but I don't know how you're having trouble besides maybe interface setup, screen size or general lag. I also think you may just be missing the IAD timing but that's just me, I have never had the same troubles as you at the arcade cabs and with three different televisions/console setups.

Also, I think the only time you would have problems with air fall time after a fatal Hotaru is against Carl with his sister shield but this isn't the case here as seen from your screens. One more thing I should add on; are you adding any extra jump input after the Hotaru?

Edited October 24, 2011 by itsme

[dioxideUniversa]

The point I was trying to make was that the IAD can be done significantly earlier when Hakumen lands like in the picture on the left, but most times in practice he lands like he does on the right, making the 2c much more unrealistic than 5a or 5b.

I'm mostly just curious as to what exactly causes the difference in recovery time.

[WallJumpMan]

It may be because you are not tk hotaru'ing the frame you leave the ground.

Even if you do the tk motion and you the hit the b button just a bit late you will still perform a tk hotaru. But since you pressed the button late the hotaru would obviously come out later higher up in your jump (it may not seem that much higher to the naked eye but is). Therefore forcing more to time to land so that when you do your IAD j 2c you wont make it in time to combo into 2c. (this happens to me alot so i just substitute 2c with 5a for more stability)

[WallJumpMan]

perfect tk hotaru takes a little practice and you may accidentally just get 5b's until the timing is perfected.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I recorded myself attempting to do TK Hotaru -> IAD -> j.2c -> 2c and it blue beated at the 2c.

Try; TK Hotaru>IAD>j2c>5a>2c instead. The j2c>2c in the combo might be height specific, I'll wait for Spark to determine that. But it's very hard and rarely done.

Since converting to stick back in November, I still have a reoccuring problem with IAD'ing especially with j2c. I can combo and I have decent execution off combos and etc, but IADj2c i mess up 1 every 4 times.

[unsanctifier]

and the other 3 times you mess up everything else :D

[IndigoNovember]

Try; TK Hotaru>IAD>j2c>5a>2c instead. The j2c>2c in the combo might be height specific, I'll wait for Spark to determine that. But it's very hard and rarely done.

Since converting to stick back in November, I still have a reoccuring problem with IAD'ing especially with j2c. I can combo and I have decent execution off combos and etc, but IADj2c i mess up 1 every 4 times.

You meant TK Hotaru -> IAD -> J.2c -> 5a -> J.2a , right?

The factors that make J.2c -> 2c work seem to be a combination of how high your opponent is when you Hotaru as well as how quickly you Instant Air Dash. You need J.2c to hit your opponent right before you land in order for 2c to link. If your opponent is on the ground, you need to IAD as soon as possible since they fall to the ground very quickly. It's easier to do it on an opponent who was jumping since the opponent doesn't seem to tech until they hit the ground with Fatal Hotaru. Therefore they fall for a longer amount of time, giving you more time to IAD over to him/her. Those were my observations at least. You really should just stick with using 5a in place of 2c though. Unless your execution is perfect, missing the combo every now and then isn't really worth the extra damage.

[dioxideUniversa]

If your opponent is on the ground, you need to IAD as soon as possible since they fall to the ground very quickly. It's easier to do it on an opponent who was jumping since the opponent doesn't seem to tech until they hit the ground with Fatal Hotaru. Therefore they fall for a longer amount of time, giving you more time to IAD over to him/her.

This is the sort of thing I was talking about, except specifically about the difference in Hakumen's falling time based on whether or not you actually counterhit them out of something. I found out it typically does the faster fall I was describing when you actually CH them out of an attack vs. using training mode's force counterhit, which seems to act like a non-counterhit.

I know about the j.2c/2c link and I sort of regret even mentioning it at this point I only mentioned it to note evidence of a height/spacing difference, not as a "why doesn't it work?"

Edited October 26, 2011 by dioxideUniversa

[kotokot]

http://www14.atwiki.jp/hakumenmatome/pages/130.html csex changes list

have not seen this on dl:

j.A P2 84>89

3C CH airhit techable

j.B>j.A gatling

http://www14.atwiki.jp/hakumenmatome/pages/134.html and there is some new information

4C(charged) dmg 1600 lv 3 p1 80% p2 94% (airhit)wallbound/same move proration 20%/black holes

Edited November 15, 2011 by kotokot

[mAc Chaos]

3C CH air hit techable? What does that mean?

[kotokot]

it's like 3C without CH. You must delay punishing with 3C on some attacks like heartcar.

[Spark]

It means if you CH someone in the air with 3C they'll be able to tech when they hit the ground. Like if you 3C Hazama's stance overhead.

[itsme]

How often do you guys use back step Hotaru? Just curious if there are any solid use for it during match ups, the only one I can think of being during vs. Tager.

Edited November 16, 2011 by itsme

[mAc Chaos]

It's good for dealing with jump ins. I don't use it much though.

[mAc Chaos]

What's the condition for landing the 5C > 2C link? I've seen it used during Hotaru combos a lot, but I can't do it. Does it have to be a CH, or certain timing / distance?

[Moblin]

I am guessing you mean the corner combo where it's j.2c > 5C >2C after hotaru?

You have to hit them with the very top of the 5C hitbox, meaning you have to time the J.2C so that it does that. And buffer the 2C immediately after and go into corner loop.

I do this combo all the time during matches when I have a lot of meter and finally hit them in the corner. Even starting from jab it does about 5k. It's a great combo, but the timing is different for different characters in my experience. Hazama is hard to do it on.