[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[itsme]

Agito looks good but its not stupid good. And the D follow up Enma is indeed a fatal counter and people have been saying they could confirm into 4k+, though I'm still confused if you can follow it up from only a 5D, a select drives or all drives.

Also, haven't seen it yet but apparently Hotaru lost its FC?

Edited November 30, 2012 by itsme

[dioxideUniversa]

I'm pretty sure I saw that in an early vid, but didn't seem terribly remarkable since Hotaru wasn't a fantastic combo starter after CS2 due to its proration nerfs.

[LegendaryRath]

Hotaru losing FC isn't much of a big deal since you combo off it now, regardless. It's not like the fatal gave it much better proration anyway.

I'm loving how Haku looks the more I see the game. He seems much better at pressuring opponents and his damage potential is really insane, especially when you consider his meter gain. Can't wait to see him get even better.

[SteelCoil]

What do you guys think of overdrive at the start of the round?

It looks pretty cool; you get 3 extra stars for extra momentum. Obviously the downside is that you lose your burst, but if you can hold out long enough, it looks like you can get it back by the end of the round. Or you can win, that's nice too. It seems like an interesting gambit, but it might not hold out once we find other uses for the overdrive. I can see this becoming more matchup specific as the game goes by. Like, maybe this would be good against Nu since most of her combos still look unburstable and then use the extra meter to get more momentum off an early hit. I think I'm liking this.

[mAc Chaos]

Eh, reminds me of Mugen. You go Mugen and then they just stall until it runs out. Unless literally all you want are just the 3 stars. But it's not like the 3 stars are going to make a huge difference so early on. By the time I land a combo usually in the middle of a match I have a few stars to do something. But then again I usually just do 1 star combos unless I'm in the corner or landed something that's not 3C.

[SteelCoil]

It lasts so short with full health, I doubt anyone would use it for anything other than the 3 stars.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Using overdrive at the beginning of the round is a waste. Hakumen builds meter way faster than before, coupled with the fact that you also lose a burst. It's better to save it for the end of the round if anything for extra shippu damage or yukikaze damage.

[Isuna]

I hardly believe you can do Emma from JD... that would be too... Shouryuuken XD

Has anyone heard how you combo of 6D? (granted you'd ever land one)

I don't think walk jump delay J2C works.

I have to admit I kind of like how Agito as an ender looks...

I just wish they had given J2A 10% repeat proration and made his combo like JB > J2A > dash JB/J2C > Agito : /

[BladeOfJustice7]

JB > J2A > dash JB/J2C > Agito : /

Ewww, old combos again.

[mAc Chaos]

I wonder how they get 4k off combos.

[LegendaryRath]

It's pretty insane how much damage you can get off a Ch 6B or 3C. Punishes have never looked so... punishing.

[SteelCoil]

Overdrive at the start of the round might actually be safer than at the end of the round. If you use it at the end of the round, you can still lose and now you don't have a burst for the next round. If you use it at the beginning and then lose, you get your burst back earlier. I guess it suits a certain kind of player, if you don't spend that meter then it does end up being a waste, but just having the option to go in at the start of the round without pitiful reward is pretty cool.

[dioxideUniversa]

It's risky to relinquish the burst and I'm not sure if the tactic will be utilized that much down the road in terms of high level play. If you have an aggressive play style, it can be justifiable to take those 3 mags at the start of the round, particularly if your neutral is weak in a particular matchup. However, another drawback to doing so is that you can't use OD in combos (for very large damage), can't use it to invuln through things and punish whiffs, etc.

I personally find it's probably better not to waste it early on, but I don't think it's so risky as to say that noone should use it. It's a bit to see Hakumen players go for that tactic and then they get their ass handed to them the first half of the around and they're sitting on 8 stars while getting pressured/combo'd, though...

I do think it's interesting gameplay to have the option being remotely worth considering. 3 stars isn't anything to scoff at early on in the match when you otherwise would have far less power to establish a lead.

Edited December 1, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[BladeOfJustice7]

I personally find it's probably better not to waste it early on, but I don't think it's so risky as to say that noone should use it. It's a bit to see Hakumen players go for that tactic and then they get their ass handed to them the first half of the around and they're sitting on 8 stars while getting pressured/combo'd, though....

This is what I've mostly seen hence, why I'm against the idea.

[mAc Chaos]

Man, I just realized I won't be able to gold burst after I win round 1 anymore. wry

[WolfCrimson]

^LOL

[Skeletal Minion]

I don't think OD'ing at the start is worth it.

Hakumen's auto gain is approx. 1mag/5sec at neutral. That means if you don't land or receive even a single attack on hit or block, you're going to have three magatama 15 seconds into the match. OD'ing at the start nets you 3 mags in 3 seconds. Basically:

Cons - Lose access to Burst for ~50 seconds, can't activate OD to make attacks whiff, can't combo into OD activation, cashing in a potentially large reward in exchange for a small one since OD'ing later (after taking some damage) will net you more stars

Pros - Gets you three mags a whole 12 seconds earlier?

I just don't see it. There's also a theory fighter question: realistically, what good does having three stars right at the start do for you? Most Hakumens pseudo-turtle as the round begins to build meter anyways, making start-of-round OD pointless. Even if you activated and went straight in, what are you going to do? For example, maybe Kishuu to get in, then try for a meager two star combo before you're back to gasping for stars? His new auto gain is fast, but not instant, and I'd say running out of stars mid-offense is much worse than not having any at the start of the round.

The only potential use I'm seeing as a possibility is for certain tricky matchups where you need to stick to them like glue ASAP (Nu, Arakune, etc). Even then it doesn't seem like something worth doing every time.

On 6D combo theory: an important thing to note is the buffed proration. At 80%, I think it's plausible to spend stars to follow up. Maybe 6D > 5C > Zantetsu(1) > Kishuu > stuff? 6D > Renka > stuff? I'm sure something more optimal will be discovered but those are just two examples.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Skeletal Minion

[BladeOfJustice7]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm19479993

Interesting stuff from Hakumen in these matches, the ability to get extra damage off on blue beats if they don't tech agito after it hits, which can help you get a forced wake up.

Also good to note, jc>agito causes ground bounce. Saw that at the end of a combo, I'm saying this because we don't have a way of ending combos into supers for sure fire kills, also we can combo of CH 6c.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJCDJ3kZuMI

hakumen @ 29:05, dat 6 Heroes theme against Valkenhayn @ 39:55, against Azrael 43:06, vs Bullet 55:42, 1:05:47 dat 6 heroes theme again vs Valkenhayn.

It's also worth noting that I thought they made/left Hakumen to be too strong.

Then i saw nu13's playstyle, and now I see why they did what they did with Hakumen it terms of offense.

[mAc Chaos]

Re, using it VS Nu: Nu and Lambda are matches where you don't have a chance to get close even if you wanted until you spend like half the match blocking. So if you OD and go in, you're just gonna get zoned out anyway.

[LegendaryRath]

Honestly, I don't see the point in OD right away. It gets you from 1 star to 3 quickly but that's pretty much it. With his quick meter gain this time around it seems pointless.

I've seen a few instances where someone would OD in a combo to get meter to extend it. Basically it would go after 5C in a combo and be easy to follow up. A starter like CH j.B > 5C > OD... or Hotaru> IAD j.2C > 5C > OD... or Zantetsu (1) > CT > 5C > OD... Ect, ect. Saw someone use a pretty average starter with hardly any meter get 5k+ this way and he might have been able to do better. Can't remember where I saw it tho.

Anyone have an opinion on using OD to extend combos / get more damage?

[BladeOfJustice7]

You mean like this:

Adding it to the Hakumen video thread as we speak.

[SteelCoil]

Actually, it gives you 3 EXTRA stars, so by the end you have 4 stars, which means you should have at least five by the time you can realistically land a hit. On paper, it doesn't look so hot compared to the damage boost you can add to combos or a burst, but establishing momentum early in the match gives a psychological effect against the opponent. They tend to be more tense when they're being hit by stronger offense early and can make them play worse or more predictably.

It also gives you a second to react to what the opponent does during the start of the round. If they like risky openers like air dash forward or sweep, you might be able to punish them for it. This isn't a big selling point, though.

The main reason why I still think this is viable is that I see people still not using their burst/OD at all during the first round, and I think if you aren't planning on using it at all, you might as well use it at the beginning of the round so you get it back and then get it back as soon as possible. Then there are people who burst/OD at the end of the round and then lose. Again, if you used OD at the start, you would've gotten it back much earlier. I'm sure both of these will get better once people start using OD better though. So Burst/OD will probably be the better uses most of the time, but it's still worth considering to do early against certain opponents/players. Being able to punish early Nu backdashes better is pretty nice.

[mAc Chaos]

Look at those mid-combo ODs. Seems kind of strange, but reminds me of Blood Kain with Ragna.

[dioxideUniversa]

i am actually not terribly impressed with those examples since it seems like he could get more out of his OD, though it's interesting to see what hakumen can do with a flexible, low recovery super

the double j.2c > 5a relaunch made me "wat" more than those did

Most Hakumens pseudo-turtle as the round begins to build meter anyways, making start-of-round OD pointless.

but the main reason they do so is Hakumen hasn't been able to do anything at the start of the round until OD happened.

Edited December 2, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[Isuna]

@Hakumen video: so we get a 8 second combo from Emma, guess that means that Emma is a godlike starter in CP standards.

Ewww, old combos again.

I laughed harder than you might think XD

I wonder how they get 4k off combos.

Zantetsu?

On 6D combo theory: an important thing to note is the buffed proration. At 80%, I think it's plausible to spend stars to follow up. Maybe 6D > 5C > Zantetsu(1) > Kishuu > stuff? 6D > Renka > stuff? I'm sure something more optimal will be discovered but those are just two examples.

Would 5C even connect? I wonder though if 6D is special cancelable, because it just felt like the time to follow up 6D was so short.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Isuna