[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

:3 :3 :3

On another note, I'm trying to figure out how + Hotaru is on block if you just decide to land and continue pressure. I think I figured it out a while back but I forget the exact numbers.

I'm in training mode right now and I can land and block before Tsubaki's 5A hits me, which is 6 frames. I can also hit her with my 5A and score a CH first. Haku 5A is 5 frames.

But on IB she can hit us first.

So this means it has to be something like +2, right?

And the move Tsubaki lets me land and do 5A and score a CH against her 5A even on IB.

[psycofang2]

possibility tk tsubaki, is +2-3

hotaru iirc was +2 from a discussion awhile ago.

[mAc Chaos]

The thing is, I'm messing with Hazama right now and I can't get his 2A to beat Haku's 2A after IBing Hotaru. Hazama's 2A is 6 frames compared to Haku's 7.

I must be timing it wrong... somehow.

[psycofang2]

are your pressing 2A as soon as you land or mashing the 2A?

same with hazama are you pressing it as soon as you IB? theres still some delay.

try tapping it as soon as he stops grabbing the hat.

[mAc Chaos]

I found a better test. Hotaru > 5D

5D's startup is 5 frames. It actually manages to catch Hazama's 5A and 2A without IB. Hazama's 5A is 5 frames and his 2A is 6 frames.

But with IB, Hazama's 5A and 2A both hit...

Now I just have to figure out what that means.

Wait, I guess that just establishes a lower bound, not an upper bound. FFFFFFFFFF

[psycofang2]

so assuming they block hotaru you land and hit 5D and it kills their 5/2A 6f max 5f min

this has to mean hotaru is at least +2-3.

if 5D has 5f start up he has to be at the advantage to land then hit 5D.

if he IBs it its now at minus 1. but if his 2A hits too that has to be minus 2.

IB reduces 3 frames of block stun so hotaru must be +1

[mAc Chaos]

Good logic.

You guys should try to see it yourself too since you never know if the 5D or 2A was done at the earliest possible moment or not.

I feel like +1 is too little, but who knows. Or rather, I want it to be more. :P dat confirmation bias

[BladeOfJustice7]

Virus is gone, kaspersky got rid of it. Thanks for all the help guys it really helped identify the virus and get rid of it.

Macintosh sucks, and now that the great based God Steve Jobs is gone apple is on the decline. Nothing really innovating came from the iphone 5, other than it having a different number.

Computers/technology is all about open source swag.

Magneto phrases apple's current situation very well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rOslnyfvrdE#t=8s

you all suck, i get viruses almost everyday and i get rid of them 10 minutes or less on windows.

also some anti virus programs actually install viruses into your computer.

also windows may send you a virus as well.

i had the FBI virus, browser hijacker like 6-8 times, hundreds of trojans, malware, adware, something called moboGhv (slows your comp to hell).

you are all soft.

The hell type of porn do you watch to contract so much viruses bro o_O

And the move Tsubaki lets me land and do 5A and score a CH against her 5A even on IB.

This is interesting, I've been trying to work on creating safe and tight pressure in the corner, some people don't wanna block my oki in the corner especially with 3+ stars

possibility tk tsubaki, is +2-3

hotaru iirc was +2 from a discussion awhile ago.

I think it's +3 with hop.

EDIT: This would be a good time to ask, I remember someone had an avatar of kishuu going under everything, I was wondering if this person could give me their avatar as I wanna use it as my own. People who regularly play me know why :3

Don't let mAc's use of kishuu fool you, he got it from me, though I should still his hotaru tricks, he makes that move so obnoxious.

Edited February 5, 2013 by BladeOfJustice7

[Wander]

This would be a good time to ask, I remember someone had an avatar of kishuu going under everything

I think that person was SansProtocol

[toanenadiz]

I still haven't played you yet Blade. I should make some time and get used to Lambda and the 360 controller again so we can play

Edit: Or I could train my Tao instead...

[Errol]

I feel like +1 is too little, but who knows. Or rather, I want it to be more. :P dat confirmation bias

How many plus on block moves does Hakumen have. I want to know when to mash out.

[mAc Chaos]

Pretty much all of his normals except 6B are +, and you can cancel that into a counter to cover yourself. In the case of 6B you could hit him out of the startup.

His C moves aren't + but they can be canceled into moves that are.

You have to wait it out until he has to hop or Kishuu back in, and then you can IAD / backdash away or try to hit him. Just watch out for Hotaru.

Basically as long as he has stars he can cover himself. You want to wait until he runs out. And when he's pressuring you with his normals, he'll slowly get pushed back, and he'll have to hop back in to keep pressuring.

IBing Gurren or the 2nd hit of Renka is your best bet for a sure fire time to hit buttons. Oh and 6B.

Edited February 6, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[Errol]

Thanks Mac.

[toanenadiz]

In the case of 6B you could hit him out of the startup.

You can also punish 6B with a throw on IB if you are in range. Takes the "Is he gonna counter after this unsafe move or not?" guess work out of the equation

[BladeOfJustice7]

I still haven't played you yet Blade. I should make some time and get used to Lambda and the 360 controller again so we can play

Edit: Or I could train my Tao instead...

Good idea, we never played yet, and I have 0 exp with tao. Though in case you haven't realized by now this is my "remote" when I play:

^I changed the balltop to white to differentiate it though. :p

I think I need to play fighters a bit less though, I think I injured my left wrist, I have a hard time bending it now :/

[psycofang2]

The hell type of porn do you watch to contract so much viruses bro o_O

I think it's +3 with hop..

you would not believe how many japanese video games (mostly frntier aja) is on my computer and ow fun they are.

and my gf reads manga from various sites, anime fom various sites an it gives me some oddball viruses.

andthen her blasted H-games...yeah

if its hop then yeah hotarus +2-3

tsubaki has to be +2

[mAc Chaos]

I feel like Tsubaki is more + than Hotaru. Seems like they can't poke out even on IB if I did it right. Which makes sense to me since Hotaru already has a million other things going for it, and Tsubaki costs more stars to boot.

[Skeletal Minion]

Is the frame data on the wiki for Tsubaki and Hotaru incorrect?

[mAc Chaos]

It just doesn't give you any information on how + they are on block. And then that's only when you do it in the air, immediately as you land the move, not landing and continuing pressure. That adds extra time to it.

Basically I want to figure out how plus it is, as if it was a ground attack. I want to know what my window for doing something like hop Hotaru > 2A is.

Edited February 6, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[Skeletal Minion]

You could probably math it out by looking at their levels, recovery time, etc. Or maybe someone has a high FPS camera and would be willing to frame count?

[mAc Chaos]

I've been trying to look at the data but I can't make sense of how levels work.

For instance, 3C is level 4. Supposedly that's 18 frames of blockstun. But the recovery on 3C is 25 frames. 25 - 18 = -6, but it's really -4.

Plus with aerial moves you have to factor in the frames of freefall and landing recovery and everything else and who knows how much those are. It's better to just try and test it out with seeing what attacks can get through or get counterhit.

[Spark]

3C gives the other player slightly more hitstop than it gives Hakumen.

[mAc Chaos]

Spark, can you test out Hotaru to see how plus on block it is. I trust your reflexes more than mine. :P It's a matter of putting everything in at the earliest possible frame.

The whole reason I started on this investigation is because after playing a bunch of matches with badlime's Tsubaki, I ended up in a situation where Hotaru would actually be the END of my pressure, which just seems wrong.

Basically, I'd throw him into the corner, and make him block Hotaru. Ordinarily I could just keep pressuring, but for whatever reason her 2A would beat out my 2A. Maybe it was lag (probably) but I have to know for sure what options I have so I don't walk into a counterhit when I think it's my turn to push buttons. Anyway, in this situation it basically turned into: if I tried to land and pressure I'd get hit, so jump canceling would be the next option. But all Tsubaki has to do is sit there and 2C and it will beat anything you can do (unless you just go right into the overhead Tsubaki).

So in the end all you can do after they block Hotaru is just jump away and give up your advantage.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that 2A would get stuffed now after my testing, but there's still other characters with super fast 5As and 2As that could still be a concern. And then you throw in IBing into the mix.

Edited February 7, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[itsme]

I just tried testing out the frame advantages of step Hotaru, TK Hotaru, step Tsubaki and TK Tsubaki and we're pretty far from advantageous for most cases. I tested it out by having a Haku vs. Haku and setting the AI to do the top specials then following it up as quick as possible with 2A. The results are what I got when I tried to punish the moves with my moves. As a note, 2A is 7 frames, 2B is 8 frames, 3C is 9 frames, 5B is 10 frames and 2C is 13 frames and instant blocking docks off -3 frames from the defending while barrier adds +1.

Step Hotaru: +-0

2A = trades, defending never wins

IB 2A = defending always wins

2B = offending always wins

IB 2B = defending always wins

IB 3C = defending always wins

IB 5B = trades, defending never wins

Step/TK Tsubaki: +1

2A = offending always wins

IB 2A = defending always wins

2B = offending always wins

IB 2B = defending always wins

IB 3C = trades, defending never wins

IB 5B = offending always wins

TK Hotaru: -3~4

2A = defending always wins

2B = defending always wins

3C = defending always wins

5B = defending always wins

Barrier 5B = trades, defending never wins

IB 5B = defending always wins

IB 2C = defending always wins, trades?

I'm not sure how accurate I was able to gather the data for the TK Hotaru but it seems either the Hotaru's hitstop makes it so Hakumen is in the air longer or the TK height I was doing it was higher than the step height so Haku was in the air longer during the TK. I tried couple of TKs but it seemed to make not much difference when I tested them out so the best I got was that TK Hotaru is on Haku's disadvantage on block, step Hotaru seems to be +-0 (oh boy) and Tsubaki on block is in Haku's slight advantage.

[mAc Chaos]

Step Hotaru: +-0

Are you sure you got it on the first frame? I was able to get 2A to win (on offense), but lose on IB.

It also seems distance / hitbox dependent too.