[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Errol]

well, at least the quickest you can get an overhead counter in CP is 5 frames. which means that he's not really so advantaged for handling overheads I think. couple frames faster than jabs.

granted can still mash 2d while trying to ib, I guess, like playing p4a.

[mAc Chaos]

Is 2D still a F1? I've always thought F1 counters on Hakumen was silly.

The whole point of a counter or parry is having it be frame 1. So you can use it on wakeup. Like a reversal.

[BlackYakuzu94]

They could have at least just nerfed the hitbox instead of the startup.

[dioxideUniversa]

the FC damage off basic parries i find somewhat problematic

damage from parries is one thing, but FC enma is more than just good for what it costs

i also dislike the 6D change

[mAc Chaos]

the scope of their use is way more limited now though

no more getting out of projectile oki

no more countering overheads on wakeup

unsafe on block

grab range nerfed

possibly getting hit out of enma

there has to be some reason to do it

[mAc Chaos]

public service announcement

crossup tsubaki is not good

[Errol]

>no more getting out of projectile oki

who wants to give hakumen free orbs? people still don't use projectile oki on hakumen much that I've seen. goro skips it.

>no more countering overheads on wakeup

yukikaze

>unsafe on block

fully invulnerable until recovered, how is that unsafe?

>grab range nerfed

everyone's grab range nerfed. bang can complain about grab range nerf

[BlackYakuzu94]

If only that hitbox was lower. If only...

[ol_Melki_lo]

not sure if old

[Ctrlaltwtf]

The whole point of a counter or parry is having it be frame 1. So you can use it on wakeup. Like a reversal.

You can block DPs though, and they're super risky on wakeup. Counters like hakumen (pre-CP anyway) are undodgeable if you active them, you can't even RC or anything. that's what makes them scary as shit. Not to mention that they're fucking 1 button reversals instead of requiring a real input.

I honestly think Haku-men is such a powerful character he should be forced to block on wake-up pre-50 heat (his Yukikaze should definitely stay 1F). He should, in my personal opinion be a super high damage character with weak defensive options. And certainly not have a counter that can substitute as a reversal on wake-up. It's already such a powerful tool to discourage enemies from attacking you in neutral and it prevents people from using gaps in strings. I'm not saying it should have a 20f startup but something like 3~5 to prevent it reversing meaties. This would also make Yukikaze more relevant because it'd be his only 1F reversal.

I mean, I played Haku-men for like 15k matches in CT~CS and I still play him in CSE but I just can't shake the feeling how much D counters carry me. It's the main reason I've pretty much given him up as a main.

Also

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_VUVd5pVWnQ#t=72

I'm usually on the "he's a power character" side of the argument but HOLY FUCK lol!

He even fucking RAPIDS into this OD, which means he does the combo with only 4 stars+OD.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[psycofang2]

>no more getting out of projectile oki

who wants to give hakumen free orbs? people still don't use projectile oki on hakumen much that I've seen. goro skips it.

last i checked C buttons dont work when i projectile is right in hakumens face. less you know something i dont?

they are probably scared of 2D countering the projectile but thats pretty iffy at best. 5d will not work especially on makotos stationary orb since its 5f start up.

>no more countering overheads on wakeup

yukikaze

Really stupid idea.

ill re iterate, its situational at best, you may as well just 5/2A them instead.

>unsafe on block

fully invulnerable until recovered, how is that unsafe?

its minus on block meaning the enmy can still meaty us regardless.

which means they still have the advantage

which means we are still stuck blocking anyway

which means its not safe

>grab range nerfed

everyone's grab range nerfed. bang can complain about grab range nerf

I mean, I played Haku-men for like 15k matches in CT~CS and I still play him in CSE but I just can't shake the feeling how much D counters carry me. It's the main reason I've pretty much given him up as a main..

you let Ds "carry" you? the people ive played forced me to use it sparringly considering the fact that they can combat hakumen pretty well.

some even WANT you to activate drive on projectiles or certain set ups in order to make it whiff and put yourselfin a bad situation.

im just not seeing it.

Edited September 20, 2013 by psycofang2

[dioxideUniversa]

Not to mention that they're fucking 1 button reversals instead of requiring a real input.

i hear this argument a lot but i do not feel it's relevant in high level play. inputs don't stop high level players from DPing when they need to DP. you can't even use crossups to legitimize this stance anymore because 6D isn't frame 1

I honestly think Haku-men is such a powerful character he should be forced to block on wake-up pre-50 heat (his Yukikaze should definitely stay 1F). He should, in my personal opinion be a super high damage character with weak defensive options.

my (and probably others' as well) problem with this is that it is the opposite of his original apparent design direction. before CP, he has always been a very turtley character. he doesn't have the tools to play rush down. he still doesn't, he just has dumb OD shenanigans to make up for all weaknesses ever. also you can't play turtle as effectively anymore because of parry changes.

some of his damage has always been moderately high, but that does not mean he was intended to be a purely offensive character. many more things than simple damage determines whether or not you're an offensively-oriented character

And certainly not have a counter that can substitute as a reversal on wake-up.

what is this supposed to mean? what is it supposed to do? it's not even a legit reversal because if they don't push buttons you get blown up with no opportunity to RC antyhing. you also have to use the correct parry or you get blown up, another drawback DPs don't have

they're strong (currently anyway) but they have many more drawbacks than traditional DPs

I'm not saying it should have a 20f startup but something like 3~5 to prevent it reversing meaties.

if you look at characters who do not have meterless answers to meaties, you're going to find there is a pretty common theme among them (valkenhayn, tao, arakune to name a few.) they are all -very offensive- characters and not having good defense is their drawback. hakumen does not have the same tools these characters do to lock opponents down.

This would also make Yukikaze more relevant because it'd be his only 1F reversal.

see above

I mean, I played Haku-men for like 15k matches in CT~CS and I still play him in CSE but I just can't shake the feeling how much D counters carry me. It's the main reason I've pretty much given him up as a main.

without being too direct, there are only a couple of high-level players on this forum. save for a few with a more distinctive style, JP players rarely do this. the ones that did do it even less in CP because parries were nerfed (in fact I don't think I've seen any of the ones I'm thinking of play CP at all.)

in general people complain a lot about hakumen having high damage, and that said i do not feel like he is set up where he is a "real" power house. being able to do 100% off a back throw RC is not really being a power house, that's being broken. CSE hakumen had higher damage, and probably would've been more balanced if his corner carry wasn't so over the top, and had more restricted combo paths (instead of anything into renka(1) (furthermore almost all these combos started with j.B to make matters worse.) CP is just dumb. higher than average damage while still being relatively balanced would be powerhouse. CP is instead extremely high damage and not horribly balanced.

worse yet, the low-end damage in CP off certain pokes is pretty CS2-esque, which creates problems becuase then you have an argument for the obscene top-end damage. it's just a messy situation all around that is hopefully being looked at

especially with regards to being offense or defense-oriented, i'd definitely like to hear someone like spark's comments on it

Edited September 20, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[Errol]

psycho...

>last i checked C buttons dont work when i projectile is right in hakumens face. less you know something i dont?

>they are probably scared of 2D countering the projectile but thats pretty iffy at best. 5d will not work especially on makotos stationary orb since its 5f start up.

You can counter projectile oki on demand, it's easy to see and do.

>Really stupid idea.

>ill re iterate, its situational at best, you may as well just 5/2A them instead.

W/e, you have an option to counter overheads if you want to use it. and you yukikaze a lot on wakeup man.

>its minus on block meaning the enmy can still meaty us regardless.

>which means they still have the advantage

>which means we are still stuck blocking anyway

>which means its not safe

unsafe means something can be punished.

if you do a counter, you cannot be punished for it.

By your logic, a neutral tech is unsafe. no, it isn't.

If you counter projectile oki, you don't get out of facing wakeup mixup necessarily. IF they block the counter, then you have to face mixup. But you get to face that mixup with an extra orb.

So why would I do projectile oki on Hakumen. It just gives you a free orb.

[Errol]

also note that makoto has to end combos early, losing damage, to try to take projectile oki. So yeah, still the only character she won't be running projectile oki on as far as I know. give hakumen a free orb, lose damage, there's no benefit to it.

i hear this argument a lot but i do not feel it's relevant in high level play. inputs don't stop high level players from DPing when they need to DP. you can't even use crossups to legitimize this stance anymore because 6D isn't frame 1

It does make a difference. There's a simple way to prove it. How quickly can someone input a DP? The answer, the theoretical fastest possible DP input, is going to be 3 frames (frame one: 6, frame two: 2, frame three: 3 + C). If you try to react to things to dp them, this has an effect. The alternative is for you to to be mashing the motion and just press the button. But if you're mashing the motion, then you can end up being hit by lows.

I think that should show that it would make a difference even at the highest level. It can make a more significant difference at lower levels. I'm pretty sure I don't input DPs in 3 frames.

Counters may not be so exceptional against crossups anymore. Maybe he doesn't catch people hitting him from behind anymore? I know his hitboxes got nerfed. rather than being 'frame 1', the thing I thought made them exceptional against crossups was the fact that they didn't care if you were crossed up or not, just if you got hit, or not.

and of course, there are ways of dealing with counters.. but should still keep in mind the difference that you can mash counters in blockstun until there is a gap with no risk of getting hit. If you try to do the same with a DP, you could get hit by a low.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Errol

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I don't want to start a massive Haku-men flame war, I'm just stating my own opinion on why I gave the character up. He started out as this pretty crappy but fun character in CT but he's been buffed too much for my tastes.

And of course CP is silly. I honestly was on the Haku side of this argument all this time but I really cannot agree with a character winning with a single throw after getting their ass handed to them the entire round. It's quite literally him winning because the opponent beat the shit out of him (low HP for OD). I have much more of a problem with CP Haku-men then I do with pre-CP Haku counters. His counters are really fucking good but they have unique problems like everything else (i.e. they won't stop grabs, ever)

I honestly wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if you could Burst out of OD, but you can't. (You can't even Burst out of the Grab obviously)

Edited September 20, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[toanenadiz]

what is this supposed to mean? what is it supposed to do? it's not even a legit reversal because if they don't push buttons you get blown up with no opportunity to RC antyhing. you also have to use the correct parry or you get blown up, another drawback DPs don't have

they're strong (currently anyway) but they have many more drawbacks than traditional DPs

I don't want to start a fight over whether or not Hakumen's counters are overpowered or underpowered but I don't think it is right to just say that his counters have many more drawbacks than DPs. They are different in their function and while his counters do have drawbacks in certain situations when compared to DPs, they also are amazing in situations where DPs aren't. It really isn't doing them justice to mention their downsides only.

[Errol]

I don't want to start a fight over whether or not Hakumen's counters are overpowered or underpowered but I don't think it is right to just say that his counters have many more drawbacks than DPs. They are different in their function and while his counters do have drawbacks in certain situations when compared to DPs, they also are amazing in situations where DPs aren't. It really isn't doing them justice to mention their downsides only.

Yeah, pretty much this is it I guess.

[mAc Chaos]

I don't want to start a massive Haku-men flame war, I'm just stating my own opinion

PERISH EVIL

Nah it's cool, that's what we do here.

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing though. I mean, every game where Haku gets up there in tiers, everybody hones in on his counter, but it's always his damage that puts him over the top. People just get trolled by counters so they make a big deal out of it.

Besides, why are you just looking at counters as not being legit and "carrying" you? Why not stuff like half of Haz's normals into infinity damage and all the heat he gets.

also note that makoto has to end combos early, losing damage, to try to take projectile oki. So yeah, still the only character she won't be running projectile oki on as far as I know. give hakumen a free orb, lose damage, there's no benefit to it.

It does make a difference. There's a simple way to prove it. How quickly can someone input a DP? The answer, the theoretical fastest possible DP input, is going to be 3 frames (frame one: 6, frame two: 2, frame three: 3 + C). If you try to react to things to dp them, this has an effect. The alternative is for you to to be mashing the motion and just press the button. But if you're mashing the motion, then you can end up being hit by lows.

I think that should show that it would make a difference even at the highest level. It can make a more significant difference at lower levels. I'm pretty sure I don't input DPs in 3 frames.

Counters may not be so exceptional against crossups anymore. Maybe he doesn't catch people hitting him from behind anymore? I know his hitboxes got nerfed. rather than being 'frame 1', the thing I thought made them exceptional against crossups was the fact that they didn't care if you were crossed up or not, just if you got hit, or not.

and of course, there are ways of dealing with counters.. but should still keep in mind the difference that you can mash counters in blockstun until there is a gap with no risk of getting hit. If you try to do the same with a DP, you could get hit by a low.

Hakumen's counters have actually been consistently nerfed. Both the character itself and system changes. It's 1F because the original use was to IB to create a gap and then counter. When they nerfed IB from +5 to +2 that affected the blockstrings you could use it on, for instance. Anyway, you should look at them like weaker DPs with some tradeoffs. They are made for somewhat different situations.

Normal DPs:

- can RC on block (so being able to block them is good for the DPer)

- don't have to decide between hi / lo / throw

- can RC for combos

Haku counters:

- 1F (2D, 6D)

- but have to decide between hi / lo / throw

- can't get blocked, so you just whiff and die, there is no way out

This is partly why Mu's DP gives me so much trouble. Even when I bait it, she can RC it into pressure, so baiting her DP turns into giving her a way to not only get out of wakeup, but to put ME on defense instead. And of course, she ALWAYS has heat. You can't do that with Hakumen's counters.

I am not sure who you faceroll with counters Ctrl, but really, there shouldn't be that much trouble over them. I pretty much destroy other Haku's who counter in my sleep.

Dioxide already covered what I wanted to say about Haku's original style. Why can't I post all day from work anymore.

Oh and Errol, I was talking about his counter grab range getting nerfed, not just normal throws.

Haku's counters are part of what makes him unique and fun to play, so taking that away diminishes a big part of the character for me. I'd rather they just change other parts.

Edited September 20, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I'll take it to Twitter with you mAc.

[mAc Chaos]

If you try to do the same with a DP, you could get hit by a low.

I tried making that point in that one GG thread a while ago when defending the 623 input as adding gameplay complexity compared to persona's B + D and the response was that at high level play it makes no difference because you can buffer the DP input during blockstun and have it come out on frame 1 anyway. So functionally it's the same, as far as avoiding getting hit by lows.

There was something else too that I wasn't quite buying but still.

I'll take it to Twitter with you mAc.

Isn't it easier to do it here when we are making big posts. This thread, it's alive.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Isn't it easier to do it here when we are making big posts. This thread, it's alive.

It's currently living for the wrong reasons though. This thread has had enough of discussions like this imo which is why I feel we should take it elsewhere (admittedly rather hypocritical seeing as I was pretty much the instigator here)

[mAc Chaos]

Also that throw combo. oh my lawd

For once I can see myself doing one of those. I grab people like that a ton.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Also that throw combo. oh my lawd

For once I can see myself doing one of those. I grab people like that a ton.

If you watch later matches (same players) you'll see this Haku throw out some really stupid throws in neutral because you can tell he's desperate for an OD combo. It's going to become Haku crack.

[toanenadiz]

I tried making that point in that one GG thread a while ago when defending the 623 input as adding gameplay complexity compared to persona's B + D and the response was that at high level play it makes no difference because you can buffer the DP input during blockstun and have it come out on frame 1 anyway. So functionally it's the same, as far as avoiding getting hit by lows.

There was something else too that I wasn't quite buying but still.

How does that work if they do a low in the middle of the blockstring while you are inputting the DP?

Also that throw combo. oh my lawd

For once I can see myself doing one of those. I grab people like that a ton.

I am going to ragequit the first time you land that on me.

[mAc Chaos]

How does that work if they do a low in the middle of the blockstring while you are inputting the DP?

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?16395-Xrd-News-(Theoretical)-Gameplay-Discussion/page59&p=1502612&viewfull=1#post1502612

Read that page and the next. I am not really sure if he ever got what I was trying to say or if GG is different or what.

He says that should never be an issue because you can buffer it during blockstun or hitstun.

I am going to ragequit the first time you land that on me.

It's only the beginning.

Edited September 20, 2013 by mAc Chaos