[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[BlackYakuzu94]

i do not feel this is a super fair (or useful) attitude to adopt as defining hakumen as a "scrub character" based on the fact that he can get very large combos off one hit in one version of the entire game's history does not really define his gameplay design

i do not really understand people's need to extrapolate "very overpowered damage in this iteration" into other broad, irrational assertions

then again i do not exactly trust arcsys with balance as much after "CSE hakumen is too strong, they will probably nerf him next time" seriously, some of their workings confuse the shit out of me.

While I agree that it doesn't define his playstyle, but he's steadily been given retarded amounts of damage buffs with each game. I'm pretty sure everyone is looking at stuff like that vid and assuming they can just do that at will. Its like Extend Ragna.

[Raziul]

As someone who has been quite excited to try out CP Hakumen, even I think it's starting to kill the fun knowing Haku can just come in and blow you up off one mistake you make. Reminds me of how much I used to despise Tager's command grab and 720. I think that outside of OD, he seems to be in a pretty good spot, despite the changes to his counters.

They should probably get rid of any special proration from OD mode and maybe tone down his meter gain in OD. It's a tough problem to solve since high meter = high dmg for Hakumen regardless. Perhaps use the repeat attack reduction more liberally on his OD combos. Taking the OD cancel away from his grabs too might help a lot.

8K+ just seems too much too easily, but how much of a difference does it make if he's capable of 5-6k outside of OD? I guess the most obvious difference to me is that at least outside of OD he has to work at it a bit more.

Another idea might be that instead of putting the focus of higher damage in OD, perhaps give his attacks some new properties similar to what they did to Shipuu so that it's still useful even if you're doing the same kind of damage that you're doing outside of it. Agito always bouncing, Tsubaki gets invinc frames, etc.

[mAc Chaos]

At first I was kind of bummed by that and all the other changes but that ship sailed, I'm just going to take advantage of it until they patch it out. I'm sure they will. A lot of other characters have good stuff too so we'll need it.

For me just learning OD combos and using them in various situations will be a challenge probably, since I could never get Mugen combos down.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I just hate relying one sole mechanic to score big damage, it reminds me too much of Marvel 3 and X-factor.

I know EX Hakumen had "Everything cancels into "Renka>Kishuu>Damage" but it at least didn't shit out damage like OD does.

[BladeOfJustice7]

While I agree that it doesn't define his playstyle, but he's steadily been given retarded amounts of damage buffs with each game.

It's not just an issue of damage buffs, we've all seen Hakumen without explosive damage and/or a way to get in makes him one of the worst characters in the game. It's WHERE they distributed most of his damage in this iteration of the game.

In most versions of BB, Hakumen could break into 9k and rarely 10k with the, with the right starter screen positioning and meter. But now he can get that off with most of his normals (including grabs), 3+ stars (which is rare not to have now in CP), and at least 5 seconds of OD available. So now not only is he able to get into such crazy damage with less requirements, ITS UNBURSTABLE.

That's where the difference is, the old 8-10k combos were at least burstable to some extent. Now, when he does 8-10k combos, unless he drops it, you WILL eat all of that damage everytime.

I'm pretty sure everyone is looking at stuff like that vid and assuming they can just do that at will. Its like Extend Ragna.

It can be done with a lot of practice, those with BB Hakumen awards know how to play this character effectively without dropping combos often. Which is why I intend to have a sub, his OD is pretty ridiculous lol.

As someone who has been quite excited to try out CP Hakumen, even I think it's starting to kill the fun knowing Haku can just come in and blow you up off one mistake you make. Reminds me of how much I used to despise Tager's command grab and 720.

OD does AT LEAST 5k if not 7-8k on average, 720 does 5.6k. Big difference, and a 720 is a lot harder to set up sadly compared to IAD>B+C>Unit Cookie Dough>hold that shit.

I think that outside of OD, he seems to be in a pretty good spot, despite the changes to his counters.

Yes and no, he doesn't have very many options to bust out damage outside of Zantetsu, renka is practically useless in this version of the game, and renka>kishuu's loss of, I think it's called bonus proration, really hurts him. Tsubaki is a great combo ender and does a lot of damage now but it can't really be used as a combo starter like it used to be for high damage in the corner. his damage is centered around OD, which I dislike. While CSEX Hakumen's combos were mundane and repetitive he at least had a variety of ways to get out big damage.

If he had the explosive damage off various moves like he does in CSEX, while having the combos routes that he does in CP, that would be my ideal Hakumen. Obviously along with his CSEX counters, since 6d is now effectively useless. A character in a fighting game shouldn't have a useless move, everything should work together, if a move is useless it means it was poorly designed/implemented and has no purpose being in the game. I would be fine even if 6d did 0 damage like it did in CT but had a prorated super cancel properties. That's me personally.

They should probably get rid of any special proration from OD mode and maybe tone down his meter gain in OD. It's a tough problem to solve since high meter = high dmg for Hakumen regardless. Perhaps use the repeat attack reduction more liberally on his OD combos. Taking the OD cancel away from his grabs too might help a lot.

Shorten the length of OD, Hakumen will and should always deal really high damage, the problem with it right now lies in the accessibility of higher tier damage, and it being unburstable.

8K+ just seems too much too easily, but how much of a difference does it make if he's capable of 5-6k outside of OD?

I'd be happy if he could get 5-7k without OD, but right now it's very difficult for him to do that sadly, he heavily relies on OD right now in his combos and design.

Agito always bouncing,

lolno, before OD this move was the most hated thing in CP. it's already really good, it doesn't need a "lol hey look, free combo" property in it.

Tsubaki gets invinc frames, etc.

I know this is just ideas, but wakeup tsubaki for 2.2k (at minimum) wakeup overhead reversal? naw that would be crazy, how about tsubaki being a decent combo ender and a good combo starter, a hybrid between CSEX and CP.

Also,

The person who made these is godlike:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/264/3/4/the_white_susano_o_by_drew108-d6n5yj7.jpg

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/264/c/8/the_black_susano_o_by_drew108-d6na14o.jpg

[mAc Chaos]

Unit Cookie Dough

I giggle every time.

lolno, before OD this move was the most hated thing in CP. it's already really good, it doesn't need a "lol hey look, free combo" property in it.

You're forgetting that after a while everybody figured it out and it pretty much became a lot more unsafe.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Hello new stick art.

[mAc Chaos]

Also consider that it's tied to his burst. So if you're getting OD combo'd yourself, if you burst you sacrifice your OD damage for that round and a while after. Or you just eat the damage.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Man, there are players who don't burst so they can do the OD combo in the next round.

[mAc Chaos]

Wait, you can't burst during OD anyway. Same idea though.

[BlackYakuzu94]

This is why I'm gonna use Ragna and Valkenhayn more :P

I'll use Hakumen when I just wanna throw down some salt.

[Raziul]

OD does AT LEAST 5k if not 7-8k on average, 720 does 5.6k. Big difference, and a 720 is a lot harder to set up sadly compared to IAD>B+C>Unit Cookie Dough>hold that shit.

720 is mad easy to set up on someone who doesn't know how to react to it or expect it. Hence, Used to despise, I know better now. It's 5600 points of utterly inescapable damage that will end the round more often than not. Hell, I still think command grabs are lame for being inescapable outside of purple grab(mostly because they're a major weakness for me). The point I was trying to make had to with the likely frustration that comes along with instantly losing, knowing there's nothing you can do to stop it.

This is why I'm gonna use Ragna and Valkenhayn more :P

I'll use Hakumen when I just wanna throw down some salt.

Kagura's slow mobility makes his play style look relatively similar to Hakumen. Probably won't be too hard to switch to him instead if you don't mind feeling like you're riding a bandwagon since there will probably be hundreds of Kagura players online following release.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Raziul

[mAc Chaos]

720 is a big gamble. You can't really count not knowing what to expect in the equation of how good a move is because that's more about the player not knowing the information than the move itself. If you're evaluating a move you should be looking at it as if everyone knows what they're doing. If it's STILL good then you know you have something serious on your hands.

For command grabs, you just have to jump. If you're even a pixel off the ground you will be safe, so if Tager goes for a 720 he has to hope you aren't jumping or he just wasted 50 heat and is probably going to get combo'd.

But yeah, Tager and Hakumen have always been real good when everybody is just learning the game because they can deal out huge damage with a few moves. But once you go up the ladder it loses its effectiveness.

[Raziul]

For command grabs, you just have to jump.

Bang says hi.

[mAc Chaos]

That is still a guess the Bang player has to make so they deserve to land it if they call you jumping out.

OK, LANDED command grabs you have to jump to avoid. :3

[Raziul]

Not as much of a guess if they know you're about to tech in the air or know you're attempting to get out of the corner. But anways, boo for free damage in fighting games.

[Errol]

The mook doesn't actually explain what SP means or if it does no one's said anything. It's not one of the 4 values so it's kind of weird. Keep in mind that the OD bar doesn't go down during hitstop or super freeze(but Hakumen's meter will keep filling) so it's not really an accurate measure of time. If anything I'm sure Hakumen's airthrow damage will go up once console hits. I didn't get to try out any of my ideas for OD.

Sp Means the starter value is taken from the next move. It is in the mook but not in the wiki it seems.

[Solless]

Bang says hi.

I thought Tager now has an aerial command grab too.

[someonewhodied]

Valk Wolf form grab is also not TR-able right?

[mAc Chaos]

Wait what. This is news to me.

[Dreize]

Wait, what am I saying? I got confused with something else. God dammit.

[psycofang2]

Wait, what am I saying? I got confused with something else. God dammit.

you're drunk, go to bed.

[Dreize]

Haven't even had a single drop of alcohol all day.

Unfortunately I am still sick, though. Which consequentially means that I've had trouble sleeping for the past 2 days. Not to mention the fact that my mind is in shambles. Still not a legitimate excuse, though.

Ah well.

[mAc Chaos]

What you changed it to, is what I thought you meant anyway. I didn't know wolf could not tech throws.

[Dreize]

No, what I mean is. He can. I only edited the post to make it slightly less wrong, as I can't actually delete the post and changing it to some random nonsense would have been considered "spam".

He can't tech them during command dashes though (i.e w[j.C]) which is what I usually get grabbed out of.