[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

Ooooh, that's a good idea. I'll start doing that. There are also two things I've been doing that have been really helpful for opening up and creating opportunities:

1. Frame trapping with 2a and 2b, catching their jump or mash on a 2b, and going into enma from it. It takes some hit confirm practice but 2b > enma is one of the most star efficient things you can do off of 2b. Not to mention you can OD off it by cancelling enma for very fast, surprising damage for the finisher.

2. Like others have been talking about, ending the air combo early with j.5b, agito, and airdashing in on their wake-up, usually with j.B. How is this working out for you guys and what other mixups can you do besides j.b? I've had success with j.b (blocked), delay, Tsubaki for easy damage. What about airdashing in but landing and hitting 2b immediately?

All right, time for real advice, before all of my secret tech is revealed by Kriegdrache.

In addition to air throws, you are on the right track with these two. But don't forget about 6B, Tsubaki, Hotaru, Agito and that you can still do Renka (1) > Kishuu > 6C > stuff in the corner off things like 2A and 2B.

I haven't had a chance to try out that Agito oki.

You also want to master OD damage, so you won't need to open them up as much in the first place. You can get a lot of damage just from playing neutral.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I've seen the Agito oki actually a few times, it seems pretty safe.

[Moblin]

The only thing that can really make you sorry for using Agito Oki is them DP'ing on wakeup, which hakumen is really good at baiting anyways.

Where should you use agito during pressure?

In the last game, hotaru was my go-to pressure move. Empty hop, pause, hop >hotaru mindgames has gotten so many counterhits for me it's not even funny. Now though, if they just keep crouched then hotaru completely wiffs and they get a free punish. I still do it every now and again against antsy opponents, but it seems like people are using agito for pressure in a lot of situations where hotaru was used in previous versions. So again, how does Agito fit into our pressure and when should you use it outside of stuffing AAs, and ending combos?

[BlackYakuzu94]

Holy shit, Agito oki is actually pretty good.

[Skeletal Minion]

I played around with the Agito > j.B cross up, but can't seem to convert from it since the cross up j.B will often land, but cause me to fly to far over their head to follow up. Am I overlooking something obvious?

1. The Hotaru nerf hit Hakumen like I predicted. If you use mid pressure, you'll probably whiff it and die. Better to get back in with Kishuu, then maybe mix in hop Agito if they start trying to low/throw it. If Agito is blocked, you can continue pressure via j.B. On CH, combo. On normal hit, oki.

2. Regarding strings for general pressure, I've been sticking to old standards (2A > 2A, 2B > 2A, etc) while trying to figure out good places to adapt for his tool changes.

Take 2A > 2A > 6A. If they block the 6A (which should be spaced to avoid throw punishes), you can try 2A/2B if they'll let you. You could also Kishuu after 6A if you think they'll try to punish with a fast poke like 5A, or if they want to go for a low, Gatling from 6A > 6B to blow it up (and maybe score a CH 6B combo, yay). What's great about this is the new 2A Gatling to 3C. If they let you get away with 2A > N, keep doing it. If they realize, "Hey, WAIT A MINUTE" and start trying to get sassy by mashing out in between the 2A(s) and your next move, you can frame trap into CH 3C for silly damage as a major deterrent from disrespecting your pressure.

The problem is that nearly all of the above is flimsy due to frame data nerfs (6A -4, 2B -4 if not canceled, etc). He doesn't really have other options for pressure otherwise though, so it will likely rely on smart reads/observations about what punish they'll most likely use, then using the option that beats it accordingly.

3. Familiarize yourself with your hit confirms. You could 2B > Enma, and that's a great option. But were you aware you could CH 2B > Zantetsu, which will combo if confirmed?

4. Haku's meter frame traps, while slightly watered down in their reward, are still hella good mash deterrent when use from any special-cancelable normal. Example: Renka, while offering less return due to lower P1, is still scarily "good enough" as a starter and will make them reconsider their poke out/escape attempts.

5. TRM is hardly worth it anymore IMO. Yes, it can be a valid option if they're abusing throw tech OS, but the universal throw nerf really hurts here--it's far from being a cornerstone of Haku's pressure like before, since even a single barrier'd 5A/2A/Etc will probably push you too far out. Again, it still has its uses, but they are much more limited than before.

6. On that note, I'd like to remind everyone of the Instant Block Barrier change. For those unaware, IBB has greatly increased pushback from previous Blazblues. Keep it in mind when pressuring since smart opponents will use it to slip away quite quickly (or use it yourself when pressured to create enough space to whiff punish with CH 3C...).

[C0R]

6. On that note, I'd like to remind everyone of the Instant Block Barrier change. For those unaware, IBB has greatly increased pushback from previous Blazblues. Keep it in mind when pressuring since smart opponents will use it to slip away quite quickly (or use it yourself when pressured to create enough space to whiff punish with CH 3C...).

This was in CSX.

[Skeletal Minion]

Not even worth it.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Skeletal Minion

[mAc Chaos]

This was in CSX.

C0R.

What's it like fighting Hakumen in CP compared to EX.

[OmnixTSC]

I use Agito oki/pressure a lot in my FT10 with OmniSScythe. You guys should take a look so you can see where DP was an issue for me and where Agito was effective.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I do NOT like CP Hakumen in any way whatsoever. I'm literally forcing myself to play him at this point.

[mAc Chaos]

No wonder you were asking if I got my hands on him yet.

Also to touch on Skeletal's post, the new normal changes take some getting used to. For instance 6a is way more risky. It's -4, so if someone blocks it you are instantly on defense. I ate Ragna 5b every single time I tried to do anything but block after it. So you have to play around that kind of stuff.

[dioxideUniversa]

I do NOT like CP Hakumen in any way whatsoever. I'm literally forcing myself to play him at this point.

gasp

don't let the rest of dustloop find out

[BlackYakuzu94]

I do NOT like CP Hakumen in any way whatsoever. I'm literally forcing myself to play him at this point.

Le twist, we have a dissenter among the ranks.

[C0R]

C0R.

What's it like fighting Hakumen in CP compared to EX.

Earlier extended hitboxes on all of her pokes and 1/2 the damage for calling him out. CP hakumen rewards blatent aggressive mashing in neutral and mindless agito usage. The matchup feels a lot less fun to play as a result.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Lmao, I'm not gonna drop him. I have very strong character loyalty to him, but it's like they took away what made Hakumen for the last 4 games and just gave him a really strong gimmick. Your ability to use Hakumen and to win is based on how well you can use that gimmick. If it wasn't for this gimmick (OD) he'd be a run of the mill character.

I've come to realize that without getting the chance to use this gimmick he's a helpless puppy most of the time, the character that can keep him out (since he has to get in more) and get in whenever they want (because his counters are shit) are his worst matchups. Because they prevent him from using his gimmick, once that happens he struggles to get in and get real damage output on the opponent. If they literally left 6d as a frame 1 action counter, he'd struggle less in his uphill matchups. But they didn't give him enough tools, particularly defensive ones to deal with characters that have powerful lockdown tools.

Anyways I'll continue to play him, because he's still too much of a badass. @mAc, no I just wanted to play you to see how you use CP Hakumen is all.

[kirbster]

Hey Blade, before you say you don't like Hakumen in this version you should start by showing up to meetups and tournaments and, you know, actually try out the character against strong opponents

[floatwater]

Ohhh Canadaaaaaaa.

[Raziul]

Lmao, I'm not gonna drop him. I have very strong character loyalty to him, but it's like they took away what made Hakumen for the last 4 games and just gave him a really strong gimmick. Your ability to use Hakumen and to win is based on how well you can use that gimmick. If it wasn't for this gimmick (OD) he'd be a run of the mill character.

I've come to realize that without getting the chance to use this gimmick he's a helpless puppy most of the time, the character that can keep him out (since he has to get in more) and get in whenever they want (because his counters are shit) are his worst matchups. Because they prevent him from using his gimmick, once that happens he struggles to get in and get real damage output on the opponent. If they literally left 6d as a frame 1 action counter, he'd struggle less in his uphill matchups. But they didn't give him enough tools, particularly defensive ones to deal with characters that have powerful lockdown tools.

Anyways I'll continue to play him, because he's still too much of a badass. @mAc, no I just wanted to play you to see how you use CP Hakumen is all.

Between 3C and 6B CH's, I hardly even use OD combos.

Extendable 5D is the trolliest thing I've ever seen. It's amazing how conditioned people are to expect the active frames on it to end so soon and you just stand there holding it for a second or two and they still get countered. I recommend you abuse it while you can.

2A > 3C has also been one of the best changes to Hakumen's neutral game in my opinion.

I haven't really had much trouble with damage or anything. Most of my problems usually stem from really weird character changes that I'm just not used to yet. Things like Ragna's Inferno Divider being air unblockable, Bullet's invulnerable command grab, and gimmicky stuff like that.

[Skeletal Minion]

I'm pretty disappointed with CP Hakumen myself. It's like they explicitly designed him to be as unfun as possible... At least, that's how I feel until I blow their face off with a 9k combo. I hate how most of his tool changes range from "okay I guess" to "Jesus what the fuck were they thinking." He feels really bland.

I just like playing characters that hurt like fuck--if he couldn't do that I would have already swapped to Kagura or Azrael.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I have to admit, 5D almost makes up for the lack of 6D and being able to cancel into Shippu off all of his drives for an instant 4K is pretty lulzy. Being able to combo off 6B for people who always live to block low on wake up, and the J.C buff.

I don't think I've had this much fun with him.

[OmnixTSC]

I don't know, I enjoy CP Hakumen quite a bit when I'm not relying on OD (which is basically never at this point). Using Agito properly instead of just spamming it at every point of a match and not relying on TRM to get things started at close range made things more interesting for me (though I miss the latter a bit). I enjoy messing around with the new combo routes and the new forms of pressure/mixup we have access to. Maybe I'm alone in this

[mAc Chaos]

Blade and Skeletal Minion, I agree 100%.

Also I'd discourage using 3C for frame traps after 2A. It's -12 without IB. If they block it you are gauranteed to get bodied. It's better to use at max range during footsies.

[Raziul]

Blade and Skeletal Minion, I agree 100%.

Also I'd discourage using 3C for frame traps after 2A. It's -12 without IB. If they block it you are gauranteed to get bodied. It's better to use at max range during footsies.

I mean when you hit them with 2A. 3C feels like a much safer ender for those little bits of mashing than just doing something like 2A by itself with out any knockdown or real hit stun.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Raziul

[mAc Chaos]

What's great about this is the new 2A Gatling to 3C. If they let you get away with 2A > N, keep doing it. If they realize, "Hey, WAIT A MINUTE" and start trying to get sassy by mashing out in between the 2A(s) and your next move, you can frame trap into CH 3C for silly damage as a major deterrent from disrespecting your pressure.

I was replying to this. Didn't realize it was already 2 pages back.

Such posting. Much activity.

[Kriegdrache]

I do NOT like CP Hakumen in any way whatsoever. I'm literally forcing myself to play him at this point.

I kind of felt the same way to be honest. Picking up Azrael was a breath of fresh air and meant I could focus on something else until I was ready to pick up Hakumen again and I am defiantly having fun with him now.

Maybe you should try messing with one of the newer characters? Shit, maybe a character you wanted to play in extend but you never got the chance to. I personally wanna re-learn Valk and maybe Bang at somepoint, so if I ever feel like I hit a wall with Hakumen again, I know I have alternatives.

I'm sorry if this post is hot garbage, I'm just giving a little bit of friendly cheer because I think you're a pretty cool dude yo! (though everyone here is <3)