[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Moblin]

I think back rolls are about the only thing that haku can't punish very well. You basically have to predict the back roll and gurren or enma or IAD agito to keep then locked down we're they're back up. I think gurren is the best at this because if timed right I think it will catch the back roll for a > kishuu follow-up, or hit them with a meaty gurren if they neutral tech.

2B is such a good answer against forward rolls and late-techs that all my opponents pretty much just always neutral tech, or back roll away and both work very well.

My question is how do you condition an opponent to tech immediately after Agito combo ender? I like to airdash in on them as they tech but if they tech just a little bit late, the mixup is useless and I just AD right over them as they lay there. How can Hakumen condition opponents to tech immediately after, j.b > Agito? (if at all) Coming down with j.2C or j.B just blue beats the combo and does minimal damage.

[mAc Chaos]

You're telling me. You don't know how many backroll 720s Ctrl would get me with.

[reaVer]

I think back rolls are about the only thing that haku can't punish very well. You basically have to predict the back roll and gurren or enma or IAD agito to keep then locked down we're they're back up. I think gurren is the best at this because if timed right I think it will catch the back roll for a > kishuu follow-up, or hit them with a meaty gurren if they neutral tech.

2B is such a good answer against forward rolls and late-techs that all my opponents pretty much just always neutral tech, or back roll away and both work very well.

My question is how do you condition an opponent to tech immediately after Agito combo ender? I like to airdash in on them as they tech but if they tech just a little bit late, the mixup is useless and I just AD right over them as they lay there. How can Hakumen condition opponents to tech immediately after, j.b > Agito? (if at all) Coming down with j.2C or j.B just blue beats the combo and does minimal damage.

After Agito link j2C and then start spamming 3Cs until the opponent uses emergency tech. I know it's not the best answer, but it forces them to respond. Perhaps you can also delay after a 3C and use 2B5A (5B) j2A jC... as a new combo off the ground.

[dioxideUniversa]

there's no reason 2B shouldn't catch back rolls unless you're trying to do it at max range to bait a DP, but then that is matchup specific / it reduces your options to begin pressure at that distance

i believe the context of hakumen's game plan / combo routes in CP does not make it quite as relevant compared to previous versions, but 2B was the go-to oki option in CS2 and E because it works on everything that isn't neutral tech

it's also possible to catch backrolls with things like 5c if you learn the timing for it, which i'm pretty sure would follow up into Zantetsu if you have the meter. kind of takes a good read, though

Edited December 30, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[OmnixTSC]

I've had players refuse to tech repeatedly when I go for Agito > IAD pressure. I just ended up doing meaty 2B on their wake-up. It catches rolls should they decide to do one and allows me to pick them back up for something if they decided not to tech at all.

As dioxide said, there's no reason 2B shouldn't catch back rolls if you're not baiting a DP. The only time players escape 2B when I use it is when I randomly mistime it.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

there's no reason 2B shouldn't catch back rolls unless you're trying to do it at max range to bait a DP, but then that is matchup specific / it reduces your options to begin pressure at that distance

i believe the context of hakumen's game plan / combo routes in CP does not make it quite as relevant compared to previous versions, but 2B was the go-to oki option in CS2 and E because it works on everything that isn't neutral tech

it's also possible to catch backrolls with things like 5c if you learn the timing for it, which i'm pretty sure would follow up into Zantetsu if you have the meter. kind of takes a good read, though

I was backrolling his 6A oki on reaction. Backroll actually has decent invuln you just have to use it with timing. People have gotten to the point they just assume all backrolls are punishable. They're 1-10 invuln and you can guard from frame 18.

If you don't predict a backroll and try to "predict-react" to it, you only have ~7-8 frames to use a move that will connect guaranteed (this is why I get people all the time with 360B and 720, 6 and 5 frame startups with holdable active frames). If they cross you up with the roll, which is unpreventable, you have only that strict 8 frame gap (because you have to wait for them to go behind you so you don't attack the wrong way). So anything slower will be guardable/reversable.

When I played Hakumen way back when I used Renka as an option select for both rolls, because if they went behind you you'd get 2B instead. But Renka really sucks now so not sure I'd recommend that.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Moblin]

Sorry, I should have clarified that it's hard to hit confirm 2b into anything on a backroll unless you predicted it.

Yes 2b will catch back rolls but the untechable time is so low that before you can hit confirm into gurren they've already air-teched backwards and have put distance between you and them already - with the only punishment 2b doing is its base damage.

So my point was that if you're going to roll against Hakumen, backroll is by far the best choice and is hard to punish on reaction or hit confirm from the 2b option-select.

[dioxideUniversa]

does 2b > 5a still work for picking up rolls? that was normally my automatic reaction for hit-confirming if I wasn't thinking about it and it is 'safer' than gurren for multiple reasons

ctrl: unless the frame data for backrolls has changed or I am sorely mistaken, I have my doubts re: backrolls being so strong. i'd have to do some hands on with it which i may or may not ever get around to (and again, I am running mostly on CS2/CSE knowledge and the difference in followups / reward for said roll punishes in CP may make the topic obsolete)

if nothing else i've certainly never heard of rolling through 6As unless it was a delayed roll or something

i should probably be the one testing these things but read: sig

Edited December 31, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[Moblin]

Yes it works for no-tech and forward roll into you, but I think if they back roll and the 2b catches, they are much too far away for 5a to connect, at least in my experience.

[Koopa_Klawz]

I've had 2B > 5A work on back rolls but then they're too far away for j.B to reach.

[Moblin]

Well that changes everything.

Any hakumens going to SoCalR?

[Kirnupiima]

Dioxide, I've been wondering about the BnB combo video where your inputs before basically any jump cancel is 169 into X. Is there some trick to it a new player doesn't see right away or is that just the inputs that works best for you? (like does it eliminate super jump with 6 or something?)

Cheers! ;]

[entnervt]

The 6 is hit by the stick/pad on the way from 1 to 9 I think. At least my input is that way.

Edited January 2, 2014 by entnervt

[dioxideUniversa]

Dioxide, I've been wondering about the BnB combo video where your inputs before basically any jump cancel is 169 into X. Is there some trick to it a new player doesn't see right away or is that just the inputs that works best for you? (like does it eliminate super jump with 6 or something?)

Cheers! ;]

if I am reading this correctly, "169" is merely an imperfection with regards to my execution. evidenced by the fact that this occurs regularly, however, the game still interprets it correctly

for instance, say I am doing 2C > j.B. i and a lot of other players (specifically common in hakumen due to his old combos) will input 2C as 1C. his old corner loops which were infamous for being extremely easy to bait bursts with would play out like "1C > j.1A, j.1C > 1C." if the opponent bursted while you weren't pushing a button, because all of your buttons involve 1, the burst would get blocked without much input.

if my execution were perfect, the inputs would display as 19, not 169. i have other certain messy input habits like rolling my quarter circles in the case of hop tsubaki, which ideally is 66 214C. when I input it, a lot of times it may look like 66 21478C or 214C78, or even 663214C78 etc. in a lot of cases it is ideal to eliminate unnecessary inputs due to it failing (trying to input shippu or zantetsu and getting 4C is a major problem.) however, for certain things like my jump cancels or my example of hop tsubaki, it's not terribly pertinent that it be perfect.

623aa also usually turns out to be far messier than it is supposed to look. as a clarification, i use an arcade stick, not pad

sorry if this was a wordier response than expected!

sometimes i feel like i need an octogate

Edited January 2, 2014 by dioxideUniversa

[Kirnupiima]

Thanks! I just remembered reading about the 19 tricks during CT or CS1 and couldn't find the posts anymore.

My dragon punches are also really messy. Luckily I can't see the inputs in a real match!

I will not try to imitate it, then

[Soviet Bear]

I got my first arcade stick and I'm currently trying to learn to play Haku on it. Any general advice people can give? So far, doing hop Tsubakis/Agitos is a nightmare, but my general timing on normals and drives feels better.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I got my first arcade stick and I'm currently trying to learn to play Haku on it. Any general advice people can give? So far, doing hop Tsubakis/Agitos is a nightmare, but my general timing on normals and drives feels better.

Any specific advice that you need?

Also, off topic. But apparently, Hotaru whiffs on Jin in the corner after a wall stick J.C.

[Spark]

You just have to wait a bit before doing Hotaru after the j.C.

[Soviet Bear]

Any specific advice that you need?

Tricks like inputting a backdash Tsubaki as 2144C instead of 44214C and stuff that's too hard to do on a pad, but is more reasonable on a stick (like how it's easier to manage Nirvana when playing Carl if you have a stick). Anything will help, really.

[BlackYakuzu94]

The input is pretty precise, you have to press C as soon as you do the 214 motion and during the backdash itself or you'll just either 5C or 4C.

You just have to wait a bit before doing Hotaru after the j.C.

Yea, just did it in a match. Good, I was about get tight.

[Moblin]

Does anyone know how much blockstun the catching part of Hakumen's drive has, now that they are blockable?

On the Wiki frame data, it leaves that part blank.

[Sophisticat]

Good question.

I don't know for sure, but from experience it should be +0.

[Moblin]

Yeah, I mean Hakumen should be invincible through the entire animation, so it can't be negative on block if you're invincible through it right? Or maybe that's not the right definition of being negative on block.

I'm just wondering at what point can the opponent move as it relates to when we can, after the animation of the catch and the invincibility ends and their blockstun is over.

[Lucalibur]

The frame data says most of his Ds are negative on block, with J.D being neutral(don't know how that works). That being said, he IS invincible through the whole thing, but I would still say he is in a bad situation simply because the enemy can move first and you lose all momentum.

[mAc Chaos]

It's negative on block for sure. It says it right there under static difference. Most of them are -10 or -15.

And you're invincible through it. It just means their attack will whiff if they try to hit you before you've recovered.