Warhound Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 It's possible the idea hasn't really "mainstreamed" yet, and that it's going to take a bit longer until all of his really efficient moves start coming out of the woodwork.
Dream Maker Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Some more infos on corner combos I mentioned earlier, these are translated from the japanese BBS and have been posted about 2-3 weeks ago : *1) 5C, Renka (1), Kishu, 6C, 2C, J2A, J2C, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, 5C, 3C does 5840, gives about 2 magatama back *2) 5C, Renka (1), Kishu, Tsubaki, 6C, 2C, J2A, J2C, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, land, straight J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, 5C, 3C does 6759 and gives about 2 magatama back *For 2) if you miss the timing of the J2A, JC, land, straight J2A part the last JC may whiff, so if you know you missed the timing you can sorta fix things up by continuing after straight J2A with another J2A and then air dash, J2A, J2A, JC at the cost of knockdown though. 1) is not really hard but 2) takes some practice. *3) FC Hotaru, 6C max charged, 5C, Renka (1), Kishu, Tsubaki, 2C, J2A, J2C, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, 5C, 3C does 6996, consumes 8 magatama but gives back 2 during the combo. It's also possible to do 3) after Max charged 6C FC, I believe by stepping and then starting 3) from the 5C part. According to the poster it does really huge damage, doesn't say how much though. *The [2C, J2A, J2C, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, 5C, 3C] part of combos 1) and 3) can also connect from the following starters : - Renka (1), Kisshu, 6C, 2C, J2A, J2C, land - FC Hotaru, 6C (no matter charged or not), 2C, J2A, J2C, land - 5C, Kisshu, Enma, J2C, land It doesn't work from other starters as far as the poster knows. *The [J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, land, straight J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, 5C, 3C] part of combo 2) can connect from the following starters : - 5B, Kisshu, Enma, J2C, land, 2C - J2C, 5C, Kisshu, Enma, J2C, land, 2C - Hotaru, 6C, 2C, J2A, J2C, land, 2C - Tsubaki, 6C, (step), 2C, J2A, J2C, land, 2C - And basically any starter that is not 5C, Renka, FC hotaru where the above mentioned 1) and 3) combo ending is preffered, although I suspect you can't extend the combo this long from 2A, 5A etc... starters but this is only my personal opinion haven't managed to test properly yet. The poster says using these combos can help getting more damage and extend the duration of combos to regain as much magatama as possible. That's basically it for the translation. I personnaly think all those combos are hard, at least for me it often drops at the second J2A, air dash J2A loop part, so in real match situation I generally stop after the first one. But anyway this gives you a good idea of what Hakumen can do in corner when it comes to high combo damage. Edited January 8, 2011 by Dream Maker
Dream Maker Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Sorry to post twice in a row but I wanted to share my impressions about Hakumen after recent matches and reading new info on the BBS. It appears to me and quite a lot of posters on the japanese BBS that Hakumen will probably not be a high ranked character although not being weak neither (there aren't really weak characters in CS2 anyway). There are a few reasons to that, the first being that you need to be in the corner to do good damage, although from some straters you can get decent 3000 ish damage by spending a few magatamas. The second is that although Hakumen has a lot of options to move the opponent towards the corner, the hard part is to get that damn 5C corner knockdown which is really hard when you start too far. His throw is the perfect example of move that seems good cause it sends opponent to the corner but which allows him to escape anyway cause you don't have time to catch up. Note though that if you get a wallbounce but are too far to pick up with straight 2C you can still catch your opponent with guren and go 2C from there. For these reasons people started to come up with ways to extend classic enma combos and also found midscreen Tsubaki combos. These are from the BBS, haven't tried personally yet. *Extended Enma Combo (4 magatama, about 4400 damage) 5C, Kisshu, Enma, J2C, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2C, Hotaru (wall bounces), land, step forward, 2C, JB, Jump cancel, J2A, JC, land, straight J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, 5C, 3C If you are further than normal from the corner for this combo to hit when you do Hotaru, it may wallbounce very high so in that case just step forward, 2C after landing, remove the following JB and continue normally. On the contrary if you are closer than expected juste ignore the forward step and do 2C, JB, etc normally. *Midscreen Tsubaki combo *First way, doesn't need more magatama than those needed for Tsubaki but is character specific (so far confirmed to work on Tsubaki, Rachel, Makoto, Ragna, Jin, Taokoaka, Tager, Hazama, on CH works on everyone but Carl) : - Tsubaki, air dash J2C, land 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC - or Tsubaki, air dash J2C, land, guren, step forward, 5A, 6A, 5A, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC if you are ready to spend one more magatama Both seem to do about 3600 but the guren option seems better to get close to corner you can also followup after guren, 2C and classic corner combo if you end up close enough. Someone suggested that doing air dash from a jump cancelled step forward could help gaining some more frames and thus connect on more characters. Anyone knows if it is really faster this way ? Still that must require some good input skills to do 6696 fast enough. *Second way, higher damage and apparently not character specific but needs 5 magatama in total and apparently only works if the opponent is really in the middle of the screen (not further) : - stepped Tsubaki, step forward x2, cancel step landing by kisshu, enma, J2C, land, 2C, J2A, air dash, J2A, JC, land, 5C, 3C does about 4182. And gives about 1.5 magatama back. There are probably higher damage version of this one if you manage to extend. To talk about my personnal impressions I started to feel the above mentioned shortcomings of Hakumen recently on hard matchups like Hazama, Rachel or Tao where it's such a pain to get a hit and then confirm into a combo that will knock them down in corner, finally allowing you to apply your game. Particularly against Tao, I recently fought a player that kinda sucked with the character, not being able to go over 3000 in his combos and averaging like 1500 the rest of the time dropping a lot of combos. Despite of that I had a really hard time just because it's such a pain to deal with her unpredictable approach with Hakumen. Was able to win my first 3 matches against him relatively easily despite this but in the fourth one I had so much bad luck that I didn't manage to get enough hits and got slowly sweeped down 3 rounds to 0. Really annoying. Anyway in general gameplay, maybe these new combos can help to solve Hakumen's problems a bit, although after spending so much magatama even if you can go in corner you are often not left with many and thus I think it's tough to get your higher damage options. But the character is fun to play, the vesatility he gained in this version really makes is gameplay more interesting in my opinion. We just have to work hard for our damage now, which is quite a shock compared to CS1 easy damage. Edited January 7, 2011 by Dream Maker
Spark Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 Thanks for the translations. A couple of questions, can you really cancel the forward dash landing into specials? I don't think you can do it in CS1 or maybe you can it's kind of hard to tell. If Hotaru causes them to wall bounce is it untechable till the ground?
Dream Maker Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 You're welcome. A couple of questions, can you really cancel the forward dash landing into specials? I don't think you can do it in CS1 or maybe you can it's kind of hard to tell. Haven't tried personally and I wasn't aware of it before reading it to be honest, but that's what was written on the BBS. Maybe it doesn't change much and it's only useful in cases like that, so few people noticed before. Don't know about CS1 neither but that could be an interesting thing to test. If Hotaru causes them to wall bounce is it untechable till the ground? Yes.
ryokoalways Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) You can cancel landing of both forward and backward dash into specials since CT. It is a very important aspect of hakumen' zoning/mix-ups. Offensively, problem with hakumen is meter control. You have no room for error with hit confirm and combo selection. The goal is to get to the corner with 3-4 meter, but since everything takes meter (zoning, pressure, carry combo, etc), it is difficult to get there with enough meter remaining unless you don't make mistakes in judgment. Wasn't a problem in CS1, but the meter gain change is a major hit in CS2. In essence, you want to limit use of anything that is not kishuu, enma, or gurren in the middle of the screen (those do not stunt your meter gain). Regarding 5C knockdown, it is just as important as before, as unless you score a knockdown, it is very easy for people to escape the corner against hakumen. I think for certain combos, instead of standard j2A>jC>5C, delayed j2A straight into knockdown may be preferable (ala what I did in CT). Defensively, the changes to IB is the main problem. This part will need to be tested more as without frame data, we don't know what gatlings are not safe. But regardless, there are now less openings, so Hakumen isn't as intimidating when he is blocking (more so than most other characters). jD no longer leads to big dmg, but is still a great tool as it is a good way to build meter quickly. It also gives a legit knockdown. Basically, Hakumen is ok because all the options are still there offensively and defensively. But he is going to be hovering in the middle of the pack because you don't have nearly as many chances per match due to the above. You have no room for error, you have to be more patient than before, and if you don't really understand the character, you are not going to succeed. Edited January 7, 2011 by ryokoalways
ryokoalways Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Currently match-ups look like this: Very difficult: Jin, Taokaka, Rachel, Arakune Somewhat difficult: Hazama, Tsubaki, Noel, Makoto More or less even: Ragna, Nu, Litchi Even: Platinum, Valk Advantage: Tager, Carl, Bang
Dream Maker Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Saw that list on the BBS too, for matchups I played I have quite the same feeling although I'd gladly put Makoto and Noel a little up, those 2 are so much bullshit. Guess I'm not used to fight them enough maybe. Also what do you exactly mean by delayed J2A into knockdown ? You follow up straight after that with 5C ? I can't really figure out what it would look like. Edited January 7, 2011 by Dream Maker
ryokoalways Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) You hit them with j2A when they are low (so you have to delay the j2A), then the j2A untech time just results in a knockdown itself. You will land as they otg, and if you don't see them tech immediately, throw meaty 2B to prevent roll tech, and you should still recover in time to play standard wake-up game. Due to changes to proration on j2A, this should be easily doable (In CT, you use this to save a magatama on gurren for 6B knockdown, and in CS1, it wasn't necessary because jC was just better). The trade off is some meter gain and damage due to less hits. You also do not get as good a knockdown because you are not close enough for your full range of mix-ups (you are too far out for meaty throw, for example). However, it's justified for a knockdown in any situation. Edited January 7, 2011 by ryokoalways
Re4L14124c Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 the extend enma combo looks really crazy in my head. and as much as I use D in CS1, I don't really think they nerfed it in CS2. You get less damage, but it's a free knockdown and corner most of the time (you can combo off standing D and 2D without meter easily), j.D just resets, and since air game is nerfed, you shouldn't abuse that anymore anyways.
ryokoalways Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 err, catch was buffed, if you land it. IB is nerfed, giving you less chance to land it. Therefore, catch is now much less threatening.
mAc Chaos Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 It was? How much damage can you land off of counters?
ryokoalways Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 It's not about the damage (although the damage you get relatively is still very good). It's about the fact that you get a lot of meter off catches now. All catches gets meter back. 6D does base damage. 5D is comboable again. Benefit of new meterless combo parts (5A>6A, 5A>j2A, etc). Landing a catch will always get you a good carry combo or legit wake-up game in CS2. The only problem is landing one is harder.
Dream Maker Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 About 5D this is the counter I use the more often now. Seems like it is a lot faster to come out than before (not instant like 6D, 2D but close) and lasts a little shorter but it is still very convenient to use in a lot of situations. Also to add about the catches, combos after them can't be extended for long, the opponent can tech early as if you started you combo with 2Ax2 for example so it's pretty limited. But you can always get a good combo from it.
Spark Posted January 9, 2011 Author Posted January 9, 2011 From videos it looks like 2A late chains into 5B. Will this let you combo 5B after 2A on hit?
WolfCrimson Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Late chains? Does that have the same meaning as 'links'? Or did you mean you could delay the gatling?
mAc Chaos Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 It's a late gatling. It cancels, but not immediately.
WolfCrimson Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 OK, I see. Do late gatlings have any significance I should be aware of and try to incorporate into my game?
ryokoalways Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 From videos it looks like 2A late chains into 5B. Will this let you combo 5B after 2A on hit? Edit: 2A>5A/5B/2B all works now i think.
Warhound Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Video posted by Sophisticat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LSyddF3nT8 Haku vs. Platinum 5:15 Discuss. I saw one good combo in there from an air throw Air throw > f.j.2C > 5C > Renka (1) > Kishuu > 2C > j.A > jc > j.A > j.B > j.2A > j.C 3 stars for 3300+ damage Edited January 11, 2011 by Warhound
zdravkelja Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Yup, he is good. Nice to see some new combos. And it is the first time I see someone use 3C>2B>5A>etc combo. I really like it in CS, meterless from sweep.
entnervt Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 watch at 0:17 in the last nico-link I posted in the video-thread: 66214B(Fatal Counter), \/,66,6C,66,2C, jc,j.2A,f.j.2C,\/,2C, jc,j.2A,ad,j.2A,j.C,\/,5C <--- 4665 dmg consuming 2 Magatama but should`ve finished with 3C for a little more dmg and maybe oki-position? Kanimiso could be my new hero;) he`s playin´ a really sick Haku.
ryokoalways Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Pretty sure you can relaunch 3 times off any fatal.
ryokoalways Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Additional note, I've come to the conclusion that you will need to land one catch for an opponent that has a legitimate pressure game, and one catch for an opponent that has a legitimate way of forcing a specific pace of game against hakumen, to have an acceptable chance at winning a round. In CS1, you can sit on your ass all day and just IB and play mind games with your opponent that way (neutralizes some pressure), but that's no longer the case, so it's not a reliable way to build meter. You can also no longer just wait for when you want to approach the opponent because you can no longer break out high dmg combo anywhere on the screen (the loss of the throw combo really hurts here, since it did respectable dmg, and doubled as a very good carry-combo). So, I believe taking some chances with catch, especially in the middle of the screen (since you generally won't get face-raped for it), is an approach worth considering. 5D/2D/6D all offer good meter return (jD is still good in this regard) and covers a decent amount of distance, which are both very important as Hakumen's gameplan now revolves around how little meter you end up using to get your opponent into the corner. Against a good opponent, you are not going more than 2 corner lockdowns per round tops, so you have to make it count. Other things to consider is to break the habit of poke>renka>gurren/enma, because as I said before, you want to limit the amount of 2/3 magatama specials to when you are going to dish out dmg in the corner. Using it elsewhere completely neuters your meter, which will kill your game flow after that point. Standard poke combo should now revolve around 5A>5B>enma, gurren>3C/5A, etc/reset variations. These combos will only do around 2k, but the distance covered will be decent, and if you can sneak enough pieces in there (5A>5B, 5A>6A, etc), you can make up for most of the meter you spent.
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