Nini Heart Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Now that CS1 is pretty much at the end of it's life and pretty much almost everything has been discovered, I believe that a revision to the match-up chart is needed. Now, I am in no way a top player nor do I have the pretension to build a match-up chart by myself. I just believe that now that CS1 and all of its DLCs are out, an adequate match-up chart taking into account DLC characters(Makoto/Valkenhayn), footage of top japanese and U.S players, character developments, tourney results, and opinions of highly respected community members known for their critical insight and relevant analysis such as LK(I ain't dickridin', just stating the facts) is necessary to have an accurate view of where the characters stand. Hopefully, this thread will not devolve into random whining about how Ragna's pressure is broken or shit like that and end up locked like the previous thread. Please refrain from posting if you are not sure of what you're talking about. Now, to start off, I will give a few observations from my character(Makoto) according to what I've seen from the top players(References: Tsujikawa, Omnisscythe). Now, the old match-up chart has Makoto as mid-low tier, probably because too little was known about her at that time. Now that the game has developed quite a bit, and we've seen what she was capable of in the hands of top players , it doesn't seem like she should be so low. She has easy corner carry and solid corner oki, second only to Litchi's. Her jab is as fast as Bang's, and her damage and meter gain are some of, if not the best in the game. Sure she has average midscreen damage(doesn't really matter due to her gdlk corner carry potential) off normal starters(2-3k) except against the characters against which she has specific combos such as Tager/Hakumen(214A~C~A) and Noel/Taokaka/Makoto/Valkenhayn(5B>5C>6C>214A~C~D) but her average midscreen damage gets a big boost once she has 50 meter for her particle flare super which boosts her damage to about 4-6k depending on the starter + corner oki. Her air-air game is pretty good with J.B beating most other attacks as long as she's lower, her ground-air game is not bad with 6A, Parry and her DP, her air-ground game though is horrible with the exception of J.2C. Her defensive options are pretty good. She has a DP, a Parry, and PF, which all lead to big damage(3k to 8k). She has some safe tools to get in on keep away characters such as 214B/C>Barrier Block and some less safe but much more rewarding tools such as her Comet Cannon/3C which lead to big damage. Her mix up is nothing to laugh at too, as she has the fastest overhead in the game and some dangerous lows. Her pressure is not bad at all either. Her tick throw game is pretty good due to her fast jab. And seeing how you can get 4k+ corner oki off a grab.... Her abare is pretty good, being able to hit-confirm random hits/CHs like J.B, 5B, 5C, 6C into big damage + corner oki. Her major drawback is her lack of range, but once she gets in, it's pretty hard to get her out. She seems to only have 2, bad matchups from what I've seen from top japanese players, and those are vs Litchi and vs Tao. And they're not horrible, unwinnable matches, they're like 5.5-4.5 or 6-4 at worst. Like I said before, insights from good/top players about their characters and their matchups, and their views from what they've personally lived through and what they've seen from their Japanese counterparts would be appreciated. Edited January 7, 2011 by Nini Heart
huey253 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 nah guys, its totally fine. Stickbug chart is 100% accurate. Bang is defintely the best character in the game, and Makato is totally low/mid tier. i think the having matchup chart, even from the top level people on dustloop is a bad idea. We can see how that went so far zzzz
McArthur Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 won't arcadia magazine have matchup chart or tier list update? they usually have those , at least on ggac they always do
Nini Heart Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 nah guys, its totally fine. Stickbug chart is 100% accurate. Bang is defintely the best character in the game, and Makato is totally low/mid tier. i think the having matchup chart, even from the top level people on dustloop is a bad idea. We can see how that went so far zzzz Naw nigga. Tsujikawa showed us that Taokaka is like S tier or something. He also showed us that Makoto is not at all low tier. Like, why is she at a disadvantage vs Tager in the matchup chart? That don't make sense. Now, if you're done trolling, you can help by posting some relevant stuff bout Bang instead of trying to clip the wings of this thread before it soars to greatness and success. I can't seem to find any recent Arcadia tier list for Continuum Shift.
huey253 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) I was trying to make examples of how wrong the current matchup chart is. Litchi vs Bang discussion wouldn't last as long as it did a couple months ago... Also, Makato has a hard time getting in, but she does so much damage that it doesn't even matter Matchup charts are bad ideas, especially from America. I hate to say this, but the level of Blazblue play is really low in America. That is why I wouldn't rely on 98% of the dustloop community (including myself) to tell you if ragna has 4.5 matchup againist x character. HOWEVER, I do believe in character specific matchups are very helpful and should be discussed in order to help raise the level of play in America. P.S. i don't think my previous post deserved an infraction for trying to make a point but i guess its whateva. EDIT: Arcadia is planning to release a matchup breakdown for each of the characters in CS2 in March if i remember correctly. Edited January 7, 2011 by huey253
Nini Heart Posted January 7, 2011 Author Posted January 7, 2011 Match-up charts are pretty much what can X do against Y, what can Y do to prevent X from doing it, and so on. In that regards, I don't think NA has to have Japanese level skills to know what options are available to X against Y, and what options Y has that shut down X, which then determine the match-up. By watching and analyzing top level U.S play and top level Japan play, we can pretty much see those options and the counters to those options. I still think that with the help of a few top players like LK, we could have a realistic match-up chart that reflects reality? PS: Wow, you got an infraction? What for? Also, sorry if I sounded arrogant, I was just trynna act cool.
Rhiya Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 This thread... was a bad idea. I'd almost put money on it being closed by the time I wake up tomorrow.
Silius Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 I believe that a revision to the match-up chart is needed. When CS2 has been released in japanese arcades and it's right around the corner for consoles (probably around March or something), I'd say it's not really needed at all. To echo Dusk Thanatos, this thread will be closed soon.
huey253 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Match-up charts are pretty much what can X do against Y, what can Y do to prevent X from doing it, and so on. In that regards, I don't think NA has to have Japanese level skills to know what options are available to X against Y, and what options Y has that shut down X, which then determine the match-up. By watching and analyzing top level U.S play and top level Japan play, we can pretty much see those options and the counters to those options. I still think that with the help of a few top players like LK, we could have a realistic match-up chart that reflects reality? PS: Wow, you got an infraction? What for? Also, sorry if I sounded arrogant, I was just trynna act cool. trolling, I'm not mad at you, i'm dissappointed at the mod the only problem with matchup charts is that its just putting numbers to match ups, which are pretty subjective to the player. for example the previous chart had some things that were VERY wrong in it from the get go, but only because certain players didn't really understand certain aspects of a matchup. thats why I believe another dustloop matchup chart should wait, or you should ask Lord Knight how he feels about CS matchps(he is a smart guy) He even has his own thread.
Alzarath Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 No. NO. NO. America is bad at Blazblue, wtf would you want a matchup chart from them lmao If I wanted lulz I'd go to youtube.
NumeroGaijin Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Honestly there is nothing wrong with America producing its own tier list or revisions on matchups on how we see them. That goes regardless of how good or better one country is than another. On top of that, I honestly don't think its just for you. It is something for everyone.
A.X.I.S. Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 No. NO. NO. America is bad at Blazblue, wtf would you want a matchup chart from them lmao America is bad at anything that is not FPS or SF. moving along. I actually don't mind having a second chance at the match up thread since it seems dustloop matured a bit since the last thread. Long as most of PSN general don't come in here to throw it off topic.
killionaire Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 I think it's not necessary. Would people here gain much out of it?
Zidane Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Matchup chart you say... Excellent. It's been far too long.
Circuitous Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 It gets to a point where it becomes painfully obvious that the players who might actually be qualified to make judgments regarding a matchup chart (and indeed even need to know the matchup chart to begin with) are never going to make a matchup chart. Knowing the numbers doesn't change the game. It doesn't magically make a matchup better or worse for you. Those numbers are nowhere near as important as knowing the actual matchup, knowing what the opponent can do and what you can do to prevent or overcome it. I guess what I'm trying to say is stop trying, and just play the goddamned game.
NumeroGaijin Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Not to derail the thread with talks of the past but what happened in the last matchup chart thread??
Circuitous Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 The same stupid shit that happens in every matchup chart thread. Like this one, for example. Two pages and not a single relevant discussion. Now just add another 100 pages and you've got the idea.
NumeroGaijin Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Well not to get technical but honestly I don't think this is the matchup chart thread at all. I reread the name of it and so far what I get out of it is he is asking the community if it is needed? So I would say everyone is pretty much on topic for the most part.
a Lisianthus Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 a match up chart made by top level players would basically only apply to a handful of people per character, because bb in america is a joke anyway
darkblade77 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 We could have a 'mea culpa' matchup chart, where we have everyone start at the theoretical top Japan is closer towards and then go "but nobody in America can do this consistently so..." and start cutting the numbers down-- ... yeah I don't even know
Justice7541 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 But that would put Litchi at bottom tier since everyone in America with the exception for LK sucks at Litchi.
Sophisticat Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 Nini... I thought we were bros, man. Why would you do this? Why? ;_;
darkblade77 Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 But that would put Litchi at bottom tier since everyone in America with the exception for LK sucks at Litchi. But you see, that's fine because now we'll have a matchup chart that will actually be relevant to everyone except the top players, who don't need a matchup chart to begin with!
Alzarath Posted January 7, 2011 Posted January 7, 2011 In all seriousness, the blazblue community just isn't mature enough to handle a matchup chart. Not now, and maybe not ever. Sorry, but that's how I see it. I'm not alone in thinking this either.
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