[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[TagerTime]

command throws cannot be special cancelled into,

I'll edit more in if I think of them

That is incorrect, In CS2 6A is special cancellable into 360A and 360B.

[A.X.I.S.]

How do you want any guides and parts sent to you? Do you just want them here or PMed or what?

And whilst we're on the subject, I've had a few ideas on a few subject (sub)headings for the guide:

Basic gameplay and Tager-specific mechanics that are worth repeating here. (e.g. Jump startup is throw invulnerable, command throws cannot be special cancelled into, Tager's quite frankly arse combo rate and exceptions)

Optimal ways to end a combo (It isn't always gadget finger or the best damage).

Know your opponent (There's not a lot in the way of safe mixups for Tager, so this deserves a mention)

Getting yourself out of rushdown/oki (Basically how to fight against Ragna/Makoto).

How momentum changes if you have sparkbolt charged.

The armour on 6A and 214D and the hitstop it creates.

Sledge is not the answer.

I'll edit more in if I think of them

You can post it here if you want.

I am gonna sort through this.

We should really be discussing it since its for us and by us.

[Manta]

Let me make a word or two about the combo rate, since that's pretty unique to Tager:

Individually, Tager's attacks all deal far above normal damage than other characters, inflicting 1000 or so damage from a single hit is not uncommon. However to counterbalance this, Tager has a Character Combo Rate (CCR) of 40%, meaning that every hit in a combo past the first is reduced to 40% of its normal damage, on top of all other proration that normally happens. This is far more extreme than other characters (The next lowest CCR is 80%). However, Tager's Atomic Collider, Magna-Tech Wheel and Terra Break all ignore this rating, making them excellent ways to boost combo damage. You will notice that most of Tager's combos involve setting up these attacks, particularly atomic collider. Another aspect of this combo rate is the way that most of the damage is front-loaded in the combo, for example in a Fatal Counter combo, you can do 3000 damage or so in the first 3-4 hits or so and then spend the next 6-8 hits trying to eke out another 1000 from the combo. This has the benefits that ending your combos early for a favourable setup (oki, tech traps and other resets etc) generally doesn't sacrifice much potential combo damage, and also that by the time that your opponent realises he should burst (bearing in mind atomic collider cannot be bursted), you'll have done most of the damage for the combo anyway, particularly if you've used two atomic colliders since it has a 45% repeat proration.

What do you think?

Edited April 18, 2011 by Manta

[FlyingVe]

I think his average damage should be better as it would help people actually respect him. With his low damage, the risk reward is almost never in his favor.

[Manta]

I think his average damage should be better as it would help people actually respect him. With his low damage, the risk reward is almost never in his favor.

I meant, what do you think of my writing as the meat of one of the guide's sections, rather than what do you think of Tager's combo rate.

[Brice]

I meant, what do you think of my writing as the meat of one of the guide's sections, rather than what do you think of Tager's combo rate.

good stuff. at least that's what I think.

[FlyingVe]

I meant, what do you think of my writing as the meat of one of the guide's sections, rather than what do you think of Tager's combo rate.

Oh, in that case. It's well written, and a good point, but I'm not really sure how that fits into the guide?

[Manta]

Oh, in that case. It's well written, and a good point, but I'm not really sure how that fits into the guide?

It wouldn't be a main point, but instead it would be a note that describes why Tager's combos are as they are, that is, it seems like you often skip out potential hits sometimes because it leads to the next AC prorating more, which is your main source of damage. It also emphasises how important resets are (I'm going to edit that in to make it explicit).

[A.X.I.S.]

I think that was incredible When I start building the guide I will add that.

[Darlos9D]

Heck, I sort of knew some of that already and I still feel like I learned something.

[Manta]

I'll write some more tomorrow maybe, someone give me a subject heading to write about in the meantime, see you in 10 hours.

[OrionXElite]

Manta, the writeup is good, only thing I would tweak is the part about ending combos early favor of getting resets. In some cases, ending the combo early is the right choice but there are also some situations where not ending it early makes the reset happen, but tweaking the combo itself gives the reset. Easy example is a CH5D>BSledge combo. The normal combo afterwards lets them tech before you can end of BGadget. BUT if you tweak the combo and change a few hits, you can still end on BGadget after having 2 Colliders in the combo. I'll put the combo just for the sake of completion:

CH5D>BSledge>2C>AC>AC Whiff>6B>AC>BGadget works and you don't lose anything since you managed to get 2 Colliders and avoided ending it early. Fatals can hold to the same argument just from the way Fatals work. Tager actually gets GOOD damage and amazing heat gain from a Fatal with a little creativity.

So again, your writeup is solid and well written, I just wanted to add in that while Tager's combo rate is crap, if you work around it, you can make good combos almost anywhere without sacrificing anything. But thats just under the assumption you want to end in Gadget oki. I know you put setups as a generalized thing but if you do expand on that part, this would be something good to keep in mind.

[Manta]

Yeah okay, but let's not get too bogged down in specifics, otherwise my writing becomes an unreadable maze of comments in brackets. Besides, I kinda covered that point when I mentioned skipping out hits leading to better damage.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Manta

[Manta]

Double posting, so sue me, just some notes on specific moves I thought up. By no means complete, but I'm bored at work so here we go.

Spark bolt

It comes out fast, wallbounces, adds magnetism, always lets you combo into it and from it, travels at an insane speed and demolishes all non-super projectiles on its way, yet the best use for spark bolt is often not to use it at all. If you're wondering how this makes any sense, think about it. Your opponent can see you have the best projectile ever charged and ready to use in the blink of an eye, they're now forced to respect you from any range, why throw away such a powerful threat just to have it blocked? Use the fear to advance upon your opponent instead like the glacier you are and use spark bolt at some unexpected time instead. Just as a quick reference, the following times are NOT unexpected:

• Immediately after your opponent techs
• Immediately after you tech
• At max range (They can just see it coming)
• After a poke (5D is particularly obvious)
  
  Writing a list of when spark bolt is unexpected would rather defeat the point, so it's up to you to be creative as the situation demands.
  
  B Sledgehammer
  Whilst it looks like a heavier version of A sledge and shares its useful projectile guard point, you'll find their purposes to be quite different. This move is functionally little different to CS1, but its interaction with additional attack has been improved slightly (see below). However, in a bid to reduce Tager scrubbiness everywhere I must make this point; what remains true of B Sledge all the way back in CT remains true now...
  
  B Sledgehammer is not a command dash! Do not use it in neutral situations to cover ground as you WILL get punished for it
  
  To clarify, Sledgehammer only has a projectile guard point, any other kind of attack will beat it and with its long recovery and big startup, don't be surprised if you get hit with a fatal counter combo for your recklessness. This move is actually pretty bad in combos too, with very poor P1 and P2 values (70/70) and a repeat proration of 55% so don't expect to gain massive damage from it. This doesn't mean never use it as it does punish reckless projectile use and is advantageous on block. As well as all things that are obviously projectiles (Jin's ice swords, Lambda's drive etc), here are some attacks that Sledge's guard point will protect against even though they don't look like they are projectiles.
  
  
  • Noel's Bolverk attacks (That yellow muzzle flash you often see)
  • Anything Nirvana does
  • Tsubaki's DP moves
  • Jin's drive moves
  • George XIII's electric attack
  • Lambda's 5C attack (But none of her other C moves)
  • Rachel's 5B and 2B (as of CS2)

  Additional Attack

  Additional Attack now also has projectile guard, meaning your opponent now cannot simply wait for sledge to end and hit you with a projectile for a free punish since you may or may not do additional attack. This obviously doesn't help you if they have a well ranged non-projectile poke but can catch people off guard if you use this move sparingly. Unlike Sledgehammer, this move has excellent proration values and on counterhit it is possible to follow it up with some pretty big damage. Despite its appearance, it has a deceptively long active time (16 active frames!) which means it sometimes hits opponents that think you've entered the move's recovery.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Manta

[lolokoa]

i would like to add Rachel's 2B/5B have projectiles properties now in CS2

nice write-up nevertheless

[Manta]

i would like to add Rachel's 2B/5B have projectiles properties now in CS2

nice write-up nevertheless

That's good to know, I'll add that in now.

More frame data analysis, 3C isn't actually any faster, its attack level was boosted from 3 to 4 instead. Not sure, but 3C CH might actually link to 6B (Which does more damage now too, 700 -> 960)

Edited April 19, 2011 by Manta

[lardbucket]

If I recall right, Litchi's DP, Ragna's Dead Spike and Tsubaki's Non-install distortion also count as projectiles.

[Astaroth136]

Axis yelled at me, so I have to post something.

The guide needs to have character specific combos. Things like ...B-sledge 2B Collider works on Litchi. Just stuff like that that will improve someone's game a little bit.

Things that can beat spark bolt should be included too. Me and Axis broke this down a few pages back. Along with this, ways to bait/punish these spark bolt punishes.

If I think of more, I'll post'em up.

[Manta]

Well, I'm not monopolising writing the content, add your own bits everyone.

[FlyingVe]

It looks great. Part of my mind is saying that there should be a note of using Spark just to get Mag, and how the startup is fairly slow and you can get hit out of it if you're not careful (Fuck Mu).

[A.X.I.S.]

I'll add optimal combos when I make the match up threads.

Combos you are optimal damage against that character.

I'll redo the description for Tager's pokes as well.

I am a bit exhausted but I'll get something written here tonight.

Ok This is How the original description on normals look:

A: Your average mid-height poke. One of Tager's faster moves, so use mainly to slow rushdowns or stuff fast moves. Be aware, however, that this move will whiff against characters that are low to the ground.

2A: Another basic poke. Can be used as an anti-air.

6A: A farily fast move that pulls the opponent in on hit or block. This move is also affected by magnetism, and negates projectiles, making it a possible way to get in, with practice. Useful for extending combos.

j.A: A fast, horizontal aerial attack.

B: A relatively fast poke. It can OTG opponents after 360s, and functions as a very valuable 720 buffer

2B: A low-hitting move. Useful for mixups and its chain into 2C. Another useful 720 buffer, although it is slightly more difficult than 5B.

6B: A slow overhead that breaks one guard primer. Use occasionally in mixups.

j.B: A very useful aerial. Hits airborne and grounded opponents. Useful for its crossup and combo-starting properties.

C: A very useful move. Deals good damage and opens up several combo opportunities, and is much faster than in CT.

2C: A situational anti-air with head attribute invincibility during most of the startup. Use occasionally, but only if you know it will hit.

3C: A low-hitting poke. Knocks the opponent down and pulls them towards Tager.

6C: A long-ranged overhead that breaks one guard primer. Used mainly in old-school OTG combos.

j.C A horizontal aerial. Moves Tager forward a little bit. Used in Gadget Finger setups.

j.2C A very useful aerial that breaks one guard primer. Upon execution, Tager drops to the ground with a full-body hitbox. When used immediately prior to landing, it becomes active immediately.

This is what I am changing them to:

5A: Tager's fastest poke, good at stuffing slower pokes, bad run ins, setting up tick throws, and tech traps

slower than most 5A's but has better range to compensate.

2A: This poke's primary use is as an anti air or combo filler for crouch loops.

6A: This move pulls in magnetized foes and as of CS2 have been given super armor! Meaning it can beat DP's and other reversals, you can also hold it down and it will draw people closer on release.

J.A: Fast aerial poke use it to force tech or bring down aerial foes when you have them in block stun.

5B: Decently fast poke that hits low. Use it to set up tick throws and OTG combos.

2B: Great low poke being +5 on block, having many uses as a tick throw set up and for doing higher damaging OTG combos.

6B: Overhead that has fatal counter and forces crouch.

Doesn't break primers anymore and Base damage increased compared to CS1.

J.B: Tager's air to ground poke that stays active for quite a while, Good combo starter and can OTG some characters mid screen for higher damage combos.

Better proration as of CS2.

5C: Good poke for mid range, Does good damage and is safe on block.

Buffed with better proration and can lead into some pretty nasty combos.

Can combo into 6A now on grounded normal hit.

3C: Decent low hitting poke that breaks primer and leads to knock down, use this for OTG combos or or for guard crushing.

Better p1 and p2 than CS1 allowing for higher damage combos.

2C: The usual anti air, use it only when you know its gonna hit.

Breaks 1 primer and on CH lasted until your opponent hits the ground.

Has fatal counter property on counter hit.

Can only gattling into 3C now.

6C: Long range primer breaking overhead, main use is for combos.

Beware this move has 55% repeat move proration making it really bad to use with our 40% combo rate.

J.C: Tager lunges forward in the air, good air to air and pushes Tager forward a bit while airborne.

J.2C: Tager's elbow drop, Stops you mid air before falling down, if you do it close to the ground it becomes instant.

If you have any gripes or notice grammar issues let me know.

I am off for the night. ><

Edited April 20, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[Manta]

Addtional Points:

5A: Slower than most pokes, but much better range

6A: Misspelt "given"

2C: Mention its fatal counter property

3C: Better P1 and P2 than CS1, Actually leads to good damage.

j.B: Better opening proration.

And some Drive notes:

Drives:

Drives in general now start attracting opponents later than in CS1. However, their pull has been boosted in most cases. All Drive moves are level 4 and can be blocked in any way.

5D: A long ranged straight punch. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism. Wall bounces on CH, stuns on normal grounded hit and blows away and floor slides on air hit (They can tech before they hit the floor). Due to the reduced active time on the attraction, this isn't the massive attractor it once was. But at the same time, you'll find yourself less likely to pull someone in too close before it goes active and getting the move stuffed.

4D: Surprisingly quick attack where Tager just seems to launch his arm backwards. Good active time, leads to wallbounce on CH (easier to combo from than 5D CH), tall hitbox and gives neutral advantage on block (Which is very good for Tager). Very bad if you whiff. Much stronger attraction than in CS1 but otherwise unchanged. Adds 4 seconds of magnetism

2D: A sort of Rhino's charge which covers a lot of ground and has long active frames. Just like B sledgehammer, you'll get punished for using this as a command dash in neutral situations. So reserve it for pressure when you have frame advantage, or after Atomic Collider. Unless you catch a CH with this on its last active frames, you cannot follow it up without RC. However, its proration is very good and its initial damage is very high, so it's well worth using an RC in this way. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism

j.D: Slow but powerful horizontal poke with a big hitbox. Its attraction makes it a very useful air to air attack and leads to big damage if you can score a counterhit low enough to the ground to follow it up with AC. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism.

[Darlos9D]

I didn't realize 5C->6A is a legit combo in CS2. 6A is like some weird combination of Potemkin's 2S and Hammer Fall now (except it pulls instead of moving forward). Now if only we could cancel it whenever we wanted. Imagine if we had a "6A break."

But anyway, I'm actually learning a lot from all this. It's actually making me more excited for CS2, even if Tager is ultimately still balls. Keep up the good work guys!

[Manta]

Okay, examination of the CS2 videos reveals thus:

5D and 2D (at least) are still magnetic even after their active frames have finished. Meaning you can strike someone with these moves and they'll actually get pulled towards you slightly rather than knocked away, even if they weren't magnetised before you hit them. Might make ticks a little easier, might mean magnetised people ride the recovery of these moves for easier punishes.

[A.X.I.S.]

That explains why 2D keeps people close even when there is no magnetism on them before hand.

I think I am gonna make the CS2 guide early and build on it as time goes on.

I'll get up on it in a few mins.

Do things early so I don't have to do them later.