[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[Astaroth136]

I don't have a problem with sledge followup buff. From what I've seen, it looks solid for Mu/Lambda matchup. Don't spam it... but surprise the opponent once or twice in match.

[Osuna]

Wait, so how are we supposed to end block strings now if we can't 4D and 3C is still very unsafe? If they block 2C what do we do? It can't be canceled into throws for some reason, right? There's no real mix up we can go for and it only leads to stuff that's unsafe on block. There's like... XYH 720 and that's it as options apart from 3C. I guess we just have to commit to our dangerous mix up more.

Tager's primer destroying abilities are pretty meh looking to me right now. I'm thinking there are probably 3 or 4 characters that do it better than him. That RC string everyone thinks of doesn't look inescapable, and it takes 50 meter to break Only 4 primers. To even threaten someone they need to be post burst and have used some barrier gauge already. (Or you could have gotten them to block spark not Too long before) Tager is also one of the easier characters to recover primers against.

I mean, it is no longer cost effective to save bursts against Tager now, but that's not That different than from fighting anyone else.

@ Axis. Might want to double check some of that math. -4 is enough disadvantage for most characters to be able to stuff 360A from a reasonable distance. Also (I'm pretty sure) No one can punish -4 on normal block, and everyone can punish it on IB.

[A.X.I.S.]

Osuna what would we do without you.

2C>3C is only made for primer breaking, we can probably get away with special cancels in general and in a few situations you are not gonna get punished for 3C on block.

Tagers primer breaking abilities are pretty solid, The only characters I can think of who can do better is Lambda and Mu and with characters outside of Tager having 4-5 primers this is pretty damn good.

If someone bursts we can opt for guard crush or at least the threat of it, way I see it we can turn it into a profitable gamble if you play your cards right of course this is assuming you're close to them and staying in.

Oh and you are right about your last statement, but if you are putting yourself at -4 and they didn't IB then you still have some options 360 is just a possibility.

[FlyingVe]

You can't special cancel 3C unless that changed for CS2?

Also, 4D is still 0+, and since it's easy to hit meaty with mag pull, it's not bad. But the range is bad and tagers normals are so bad, an SD of +1 doesn't mean what it should.

[Nini Heart]

Tagers primer breaking abilities are pretty solid, The only characters I can think of who can do better is Lambda and Mu and with characters outside of Tager having 4-5 primers this is pretty damn good.

*Cough Makoto Noel Cough*

[Manta]

You can't special cancel 3C unless that changed for CS2?

Also, 4D is still 0+, and since it's easy to hit meaty with mag pull, it's not bad. But the range is bad and tagers normals are so bad, an SD of +1 doesn't mean what it should.

If it is special cancellable there might be a few good uses for it. 6B FC (max range) 3C, 236A, 5C, 6A, 623C ... Go Go gadget theoryfighter!

[A.X.I.S.]

3C is not special cancelable.

Also I never seen Makoto break primers and Noel won't break primers unless you are blocking drives.

Edit: We were talking about -4 being safe...which is safe enough for you to block without being punished but nothing more.

Think of 3C being hells fang in a block string in this case but hells fang is terrible in block strings without RC...3C's push back is what makes it deceptively safe keep that in mind. ><

Last Edit: -6 is not safe...before you guys rip me a new asshole I am just gonna throw that out.

But some characters have a hard time punishing it without IB.

Edited March 21, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[Manta]

Inferno divider still goes active in 5 frames and that has quite a bit of reach compared to 5 frame 5As that you might otherwise be thinking of.

[FlyingVe]

Axis is right though, because of the push back, punishing could be hard to impossible for alot of characters. Not all, but many.

[Nini Heart]

3C is not special cancelable.

Also I never seen Makoto break primers and Noel won't break primers unless you are blocking drives.

Stuff>236A~D= -2 primers and you can't punish it because of push back.

CS2 it's gonna be even better since most drives are safe and faster. I've already thought of legit looking 5 primer breaking strings using one RC.

We don't bother doing it against Tager but it's pretty legit against those 4-5 primer characters after a burst.

CS2 Noel has J.4D>stuff. Unless you're blocking it, you're getting hit by it. J.4D>Assault through>RC>J.4D>Assault through and she just made quick work of 4 primers. Against characters without a DP/good reversal, you can add in a D.6C in between to make this string break 6 primers.

Also you guys shouldn't forget that instant blocking reduces pushback by a lot, so -7 is gonna get punished by pretty much everyone, especially since 3C leaves Tager in crouching state.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Nini Heart

[A.X.I.S.]

6A>4D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjBcVU9dg7c&feature=player_detailpage#t=268s

So that is a safe way out even on IB.

Edited March 26, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[Osuna]

So what was that "get away with special canceling" line about from before? The only special cancels I know that's not terribly unsafe are...not on Tager. The most aggressive and coolest is XYH 720, but that's hardly safe. I just want to make sure I didn't miss something.

So if they block 2C we're screwed because we have no safe options after that, but if we want to or have to omit any mix up off 6A we can make it safe with 4D. Actually, would that work as a ghetto mix up? 2C>3C/XYH720?

[Nini Heart]

6A>4D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjBcVU9dg7c&feature=player_detailpage#t=273s

So that is a safe way out even on IB.

Depends on whether it's really tight or not. If not, I.B>Reversal will work. Hell, maybe even normal block>reversal works. You better pray it's really tight cause if it can be Jayoku'd/DP'd, it's gonna be a bad move.

[Manta]

Depends on whether it's really tight or not. If not, I.B>Reversal will work. Hell, maybe even normal block>reversal works. You better pray it's really tight cause if it can be Jayoku'd/DP'd, it's gonna be a bad move.

What other options are there? If 6A 4D isn't truly safe then we basically have nothing, not even a jump cancel to get us out. It's one of those times when I feel a backdash cancellable move would be the most useful thing ever.

[FlyingVe]

Okay, I did some frame math, or tried to at least, and it looks like 6A>4D is air tight, even on IB (CS2 IB at least).

Assuming 6A is a lvl 3 attack which means it inflicts 16 frames of guardstun, and 4D is a 13 frame move. This means it should be gapless on normal block. Now that IB has been nerfed to only reducing stun by 2 frames, it is also safe on IB. Since, 4D has an SD of 0 or greater, you are good afterwards too.

[A.X.I.S.]

6A>4D was always air tight or really close to it anyways.

The problem with it in CS1 was 4D is easy to IB and that is a really bad spot to be in.

In CS2 however the only problem is that they are way too close.

In many cases level 3-4 moves into 4D was generally air tight.

[Nini Heart]

6A>4D was always air tight or really close to it anyways.

The problem with it in CS1 was 4D is easy to IB and that is a really bad spot to be in.

In CS2 however the only problem is that they are way too close.

In many cases level 3-4 moves into 4D was generally air tight.

Nah. Whenever I play as Hazama and I I.B a 6A, I always mash Jayoku and it works all the time. I trade a lot of the times but it's to my favor so w/e.

It'll probably be airtight in CS2 though.

[A.X.I.S.]

The frame advantage for 6A in CS2 is far worse.

I had no one mash jayoku through my 6A>4D hell no one managed to mash through 6A>2C but I will take you for your word.

If someone wants to test they are free to try.

[FlyingVe]

Mag pull got a bit stonger overall right? That cold make 4D as en ender significantly better.

[A.X.I.S.]

IB nerf made 4D ender better, 4D is safe no matter what now.

This means we can do safe block strings off 5A, the bad side is we can't go for a 360 off of it. (Well we still can but it becomes a 50/50 that we can lose easily.)

If you guys haven't used 4D in blockstrings before it wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in it now.

Just don't do it point blank, oh god please don't.

@ Osuna: I somehow missed your post for several days sorry about that.

Spark bolt! its -1 and it takes a primer, pretty safe.

Too bad its situational and you might not even be thinking about it.

IIRC isn't spark and 4D 13F?

I just thought of something.

If someone is point blank and has 3 primers you can safely beat those primers out with.

2C>RC>2C>Spark.

It can work as a frame trap if its not air tight and its a safe way out for 3 primers, sadly it cost 50 heat...BUUUT!! if you do decide to do 3C instead of spark immediately you might push them too far out to punish, of course this is assuming 3C hits that far out and I haven't even considered barrier which might make the 3C whiff or make 3C impossible to punish.

Edited March 26, 2011 by A.X.I.S.

[Osuna]

IB nerf made 4D ender better, 4D is safe no matter what now.

This means we can do safe block strings off 5A, the bad side is we can't go for a 360 off of it. (Well we still can but it becomes a 50/50 that we can lose easily.)

If you guys haven't used 4D in blockstrings before it wouldn't be a bad idea to invest in it now.

Just don't do it point blank, oh god please don't.

@ Osuna: I somehow missed your post for several days sorry about that.

Spark bolt! its -1 and it takes a primer, pretty safe.

Too bad its situational and you might not even be thinking about it.

IIRC isn't spark and 4D 13F?

I just thought of something.

If someone is point blank and has 3 primers you can safely beat those primers out with.

2C>RC>2C>Spark.

It can work as a frame trap if its not air tight and its a safe way out for 3 primers, sadly it cost 50 heat...BUUUT!! if you do decide to do 3C instead of spark immediately you might push them too far out to punish, of course this is assuming 3C hits that far out and I haven't even considered barrier which might make the 3C whiff or make 3C impossible to punish.

How nice it would be to end every block string with spark bolt.

Barrier means the opponent needs to have 1 primer and be missing some barrier to be guard broken by a 3 primer string if I remember how much barrier it takes, which I very well may not. (so plus or minus 1 I guess)

And that's why I think Guard crush looks pretty gimmicky. 50 meter and spark and the only plausible break situation is against someone who used 2 bursts in 1 round.Like every other tool we're given, we're going to piss off noobs with it and it won't even factor into 90+% of legit matches. And how do they get primers back? By doing long character specific combos on us, not being in long block strings that we don't have, and by zoning us. How do we drop their primers without getting them to burst? Spark bolt and RCing very unsafe moves.

[A.X.I.S.]

Yeah thats the gist of it but look at the bright side.

Everyone bursts on Tager and we can take advantage of it, if they want to barrier thats fine, we always have ways of dealing with that and that has never changed what we think.

Hell honestly the fear of guard break 720 is a buff, it's something we can use but not something we should always strive for.

Keep it as a situational option.

Osuna you are too pessimistic. T_T

[FlyingVe]

I actually think Tager's viable this time around. The worst character in the game maybe, but still, much better off than the previous two games.

[Airk]

I actually think Tager's viable this time around. The worst character in the game maybe, but still, much better off than the previous two games.

Certainly he seems to be showing up in a lot of Japanese videos lately, so at the very least, they haven't given up hope for him. (Unlike, say, CS1 Tsubaki, who basically didn't exist)

[Osuna]

Yeah thats the gist of it but look at the bright side.

Everyone bursts on Tager and we can take advantage of it, if they want to barrier thats fine, we always have ways of dealing with that and that has never changed what we think.

Hell honestly the fear of guard break 720 is a buff, it's something we can use but not something we should always strive for.

Keep it as a situational option.

Osuna you are too pessimistic. T_T

Well, I like to think I'm pretty critical rather than pessimistic. It's not like I'm going to change characters.

Most of my pessimism has been reasonably accurate too.

Remember when the IB nerf came out? Someone, I forget who, said something to the effect "We get repeatable pressure with Asledge now" Which simply wasn't true even before we found out that it got a recovery nerf. Post nerf it is Super untrue. I guess that's people being overly optimistic rather than me being pessimistic though.

While I haven't written off 6A quite yet, the consensus now is that the armor is inconveniently placed so it doesn't work for most of the functions people were raving about when it was announced. But I had said from the start it looked like something iffy with it's many limitations. I specifically mentioned that a lot of it's supposed functions were likely to be beaten on reaction when people got used to it. As time went on we only discovered More limitations.

I Never understood why people were hype about GF since the risk-reward was just bad.

I'm just saying it before All of us are telling the new guys the same; that we Don't have safe, reliable primer breaking abilities without spark bolt and it's easier to get primers back against us than any other character if we don't have spark bolt. Calling it a buff, is correct, but everyone got that buff. And our version of the buff is pretty meh even before you compare it to people with a much better primer game. People keep talking about it like it's amazing, but it's just "meh". Not like I won't ever use it, it's just not That great.

Besides everyone is looking at it the wrong way when they say silly stuff like "guard break 720's all day". The real buff is they can't burst twice without having to constantly watch out for SB and we should be looking for 100 meter inescapable guard breaks (Or as close as we can get to it) on someone who has bursted 1 time. Preferably that lets you hitconfirm to see if they barriered so you don't stop too early or too late. Then you should go for a 360B. That will take a flexible plan of action, but have much better results. It's like an upgrade from a 100 meter MTW RC mix up if we can somehow manage a sure fire break off 100 meter. After that we can look for mix ups where people low on primers might do something to save a primer and eat something for their trouble.