[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[Coopa]

I'm just going to ask this question here instead of the Jin matchup thread, since I don't want to clutter that post thread up until more solid information is released, but can someone tell me about Tager vs Jin? I do well in it because I normally don't press buttons, but his pressure is safe beyond belief.

Can someone tell me punishes for this guy if he gets too jittery?

The way I play it now, is I try to see a pattern, specifically jump cancel patterns. I'm thinking if they 5b jump cancel air dash back, I can just spark bolt them or something, but I'd like some more information for anyone who feels especially knowledgeable about this matchup.

Also, on a random note, what's the most reliable way to get out of a hakumen fully charged unblockable super setup. Say, he does a combo that sets me in the corner and he then super cancels to his sword. Should I just super jump or something? I actually just gold burst whiff 720, but I'd like something a little less, uh, committed.

[Isorropia]

Frame data says unblockable shippu is about 93f after the flash, couldn't you just tech and punish with 720, or 5A/5C etc? I was under the impression that you couldn't really set up into the super as hakumen since it takes so long to charge.

[Manta]

Thing is, that super has a massive hitbox, and he can do it outside the reach of your 5D and still hit you with the sword if he uses renka or something to boot you into the corner first. He can also release it early so I expect he can hit you in reaction to 2D or BSledge (But not spark bolt). Super Jumping over it does seem to be the safest option.

[A.X.I.S.]

Jin is very hard to punish, when Jin is playing safe you won't get too many chances to 2D in.

Your best chances to punish is when he jumps too close or really obvious (collider range.) and when he is running in.

5A stuffs pretty much anything he does running in, him using a DP is a death sentence you can backdash all of them and low profile the A and B DP's.

The match feels hard because we can't IB 720 him from anything anymore but you can IB to make staggers and jump cancels easier to punish.

Punishing DPs:

A DP, 5A/5C if he is close other wise no go.

B DP, 5C/360 if he is close enough.

C DP, anything you want will do it.

D DP, use your best discretion.

Other than punishing DP's punish badly judged D moves...please do not try to reaction sledge 2D, its not a good idea.

[Karsticles]

Jumping away and barriering after your gadget finger? Try Yomi Collider™. Punish those cowards for trying to run from you!

Yomi Collider? I really am more concerned about the follow-up of a 5A after someone jumps. I'd like to take the 50/50 guessing game and make it a more solid situation that guarantees I'm in an advantageous position.

Other than punishing DP's punish badly judged D moves...please do not try to reaction sledge 2D, its not a good idea.

Why not? It always works wonders for me.

[A.X.I.S.]

If you 5A them then they get hit for pushing buttons and get hit for trying to jump.

Its more safe than doing 360 or collider.

If you do connect a 5A then hitconfirm it into a 360 or low depending on what they tried to do.

If you CH then follow it up with 5C>6A>stuff.

Jin's 2D is pretty fast and you're more likely to sledge it on yomi than on reaction.

But that's my experience.

[Fafy]

I assume the punish for Jins A DP assumes that you block it, as Tager has nothing fast enough to beat it, since Jins A DP has a 6 frame start up, where Tagers 5A is 7.

[A.X.I.S.]

If Jin is trying to use it as dash in punish the 5A will more likely than not CH him.

If Jin is trying to use it in pressure he gets hurt for it.

Not to mention ducking the DP lets you get in a CH 5C which combos into 6C or 2D.

Oh and FYI we can 360A through Jin's A and B and D DP's.

Timing is different for each.

[mAc Chaos]

Making it so those A and B DPs whiff on crouching was the dumbest thing ever. :P

[Fafy]

Well, of course, as it's not really anything a Jin player should use as a pressure string. He'd use it at best as an attempted frame trap, but even then that might be stupid for the Jin to do. Of course, used outside of that might be the tricky parts, but if we play smart and use our 360A with care, we'll stuff his DP's as you mentioned.

[A.X.I.S.]

It's still a DP, meaning it can be used as a gtfo me tool.

Making them something even Tager can low profile is a big boon for us.

[Karsticles]

What is a "Yomi"?

[Manta]

Yomi means "read". It's when you predict what your opponent will do based on your gamer's intuition and act accordingly.

In other news, I finally have CS2 (Goddamn it Europe). So I can finally do guardbreak fullscreen 720s.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Manta

[Coopa]

Okay, so this whole match is just one big test of yomi and one character has more tools and safe blockstrings that lead to bigger damage than the other. Ib nerf really made Jin auto-pilot, but at least it isn't as bad as Cs1 Bang.

Thanks for the information, Axis. I'll try to react more to his approaches now.

[Nini Heart]

Jin's A fubuki isn't a DP. It's an anti air.

Fubuki B is questionable as a DP as well. Kinda weird for a dp to get hit out of startup frames.

[A.X.I.S.]

Okay, so this whole match is just one big test of yomi and one character has more tools and safe blockstrings that lead to bigger damage than the other. Ib nerf really made Jin auto-pilot, but at least it isn't as bad as Cs1 Bang.

Thanks for the information, Axis. I'll try to react more to his approaches now.

You don't even need yomi to win, just play solid and you'll be fine.

[Azzal]

So I've been playing CS2 for a week now and I have to say that I always like playing Tager BUT a lot of changes/nerfs troubles me.

The first thing is the 6A not JC anymore. I really used it a lot since CT and I have to say that it was really disturbing during the first hours.

The other thing, much more troublesome is the change to magnetism, specially the 5D. I mean, I almost never use it anymore. The pull is awfull now, I get countered everytime. Plus, re-magnetising someone is really hard now (btw, has the magnetism time been lowered?).

Finally, the biggest nerf that makes me REALLY angry is the IB nerf. Since CS2 is out, I have never heard the word "counter" that much, it's driving me nuts. I can't get used to it. I always try Ib+ 360, IB+ throw, IB 5A, all of this results to "COUNTA".

Now it's like every character turned to CS1 Bang or Litchi and all we can do is block and wait. Every character turns into a rushdown character against Tager now, no one respects him anymore. :/

And I have to say that this point specially make Tager really frustating to play in CS2, because the lack of defensive option.

Despite all since, as I said, I'm still having a lot of fun playing him, the damage boos of his BNB are enjoyable (5A, 5B,3C, 2B, 2C AC is doing a lot more damage am I right? :<).

[Karsticles]

Yomi means "read". It's when you predict what your opponent will do based on your gamer's intuition and act accordingly.

Thank you!

[A.X.I.S.]

So I've been playing CS2 for a week now and I have to say that I always like playing Tager BUT a lot of changes/nerfs troubles me.

The first thing is the 6A not JC anymore. I really used it a lot since CT and I have to say that it was really disturbing during the first hours.

The other thing, much more troublesome is the change to magnetism, specially the 5D. I mean, I almost never use it anymore. The pull is awfull now, I get countered everytime. Plus, re-magnetising someone is really hard now (btw, has the magnetism time been lowered?).

Finally, the biggest nerf that makes me REALLY angry is the IB nerf. Since CS2 is out, I have never heard the word "counter" that much, it's driving me nuts. I can't get used to it. I always try Ib+ 360, IB+ throw, IB 5A, all of this results to "COUNTA".

Now it's like every character turned to CS1 Bang or Litchi and all we can do is block and wait. Every character turns into a rushdown character against Tager now, no one respects him anymore. :/

And I have to say that this point specially make Tager really frustating to play in CS2, because the lack of defensive option.

Despite all since, as I said, I'm still having a lot of fun playing him, the damage boos of his BNB are enjoyable (5A, 5B,3C, 2B, 2C AC is doing a lot more damage am I right? :<).

Welcome to CS2!

Like I said before you will cry a river of tears but eventually you will adapt and love these changes.

Also some combos do less damage, some do more damage, and others are just simply easier to do.

[FlyingVe]

I had all the same complaints and tears, but after I adapted I can safely say that CS2 is really, really good. So stick with it.

A random thought. I was playing the other day, and was messing around. I started ending my corner combos with Sledge>followup, and then catching the air tech with jC>jD. After the jD is blocked they will be on the ground and you can do what you will. Obviously, this would only work on an immediate tech, but I thought I would mention it as it seem relatively effective.

[Coopa]

I was testing some things against my friend yesterday. All I can say is... what happened to Ragna's mixup options? They took some strong gattlings from the guy. And Hazama makes me want to cry, but I learned a few more things in that matchup, too.

Cs2 changed a lot of things. I'm still trying to keep it all sorted out.

[FlyingVe]

Actually, the only mixup gattling he lost was off 6A, but damn was that a strong one. I think Tager does really well against Ragna now.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

It's important to beat the characters that can apply pressure to Tager all day. Those have to be the characters you have to worry about in tourneys.

Edited May 27, 2011 by CrazyI-nomitsu

[Coopa]

I think for CS2, it's really important to learn a sub for zoning characters. It's just too hard sometimes to beat those bad matchups, man. Against Ragna though, I'm thinking it's horrible for Ragna now and Jourdal agrees with me on this, at least, based on the videos he's seen.

I think as a Tager player, you can beat pretty much every bad matchup UP to a 6-4 in your opponent's favor. Past that, it gets really tough. Like, I'm sitting here seriously wondering what I should do as Tager against Hazama most of the time, man.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

Since you say that Coppa. I saw you own nate. Good work. I am making a choice between Makoto or Noel for a sub for my Tager. Sicne you brought up characters like Hazama. Who I, for one, fucking hate fighting as Tager.