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[Volpe-de-Glacio]

What do you mean by "you can't even block against him?" That's how all grapplers work... punishing blocks. I think you guys just aren't used to facing a grappler with a fast grab. His C grab is 3 frames, and it can grab a character that's landing while they're still holding up (test it in training).

That was one problem Tager had. His grabs were on the slower side, but BB was an overall slower game anyway. Tager had a few great pokes that could hit confirm from even max range, and that's what Kanji lacks. His normals are ASS.

You're making a ton of assumptions. The point of a grappler is to punish blocking by reading that your opponent is going to block and throwing. Not MAKING your opponent block, and THEN punishing them for it. You're essentially telling me I'm not even allowed to be in normal range (which I need to, to, y'know, pressure) You're telling me instead of blocking I'm supposed to just take combos to the face. You're telling me I should be "zoning" by staying just a bit outside of Kanji's optimal spacing and spamming maziodyne.

And if you have no options against one tool, then you're playing a bad character.

This. Mitsuru vs Elizabeth is 7-3 solely because of well timed coup droits. Elizabeth vs. Kanji is 7-3 solely because of well timed maziodynes. And apparently this is TOTALLY acceptable, lmfao.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Astaroth136]

How the fuck? What kind of logic is that? Again, i'm not saying the whole match-up against Kanji is stupid. But the gap between the traditional grappler I know of and Kanji seem to differ quite a bit. Not to mention knock-down situations against him is much different as opposed to other grapplers, but I suppose that makes me a scrub? Wtf?

Also, Mitsuru vs Kanji is not that far in my favor. Being good doesn't mean being unwinnable.

Anyways, this discussion went from being about knock-down situations against Kanji into people apparently people being free for not being good at a slightly better match-up. As if player skill and having the resources necesary to be an adequate character just doesn't apply.

Also, no one is calling a character out due to losing to them. Last night had nothing to do with the origins of the conversation. Whatever, I don't know why I bother to post anymore.

You can get pissy if you want, but I've explained to you both in several posts how Kanji is barely different from other grapplers. If he was leaps and bounds different, then everyone would be complaining about him and/or picking him up. He's a grappler with a meterless dp and fast command grab. So was T. Hawk (had an EX dp, 1-3 frame grabs).

[Klein]

You're making a ton of assumptions. The point of a grappler is to punish blocking by reading that your opponent is going to block and throwing. Not MAKING your opponent block, and THEN punishing them for it. You're essentially telling me I'm not even allowed to be in normal range (which I need to, to, y'know, pressure) You're telling me instead of blocking I'm supposed to just take combos to the face. You're telling me I should be "zoning" by staying just a bit outside of Kanji's optimal spacing and spamming maziodyne.

Wrong~

Grapplers are supposed to put you into mind games with a reward on success, nothing more, nothing less. Could be with blockstrings, could be with oki. And the thing is, you have normals that you can confirm off of into oki, he can't grab you out of them. Hit him, knock him down, repeat. Arguing against normals having range is stupid, it's ignoring that footsies exist.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Wrong~

Grapplers are supposed to put you into mind games with a reward on success, nothing more, nothing less. Could be with blockstrings, could be with oki. And the thing is, you have normals that you can confirm off of into oki, he can't grab you out of them. Hit him, knock him down, repeat. Arguing against normals having range is stupid, it's ignoring that footsies exist.

Uh, doesn't mind-games include -reading that your opponent is going to be blocking-? I didn't say that was the extent of grapplers, I was just throwing an aspect out there. It's not a mind-game at all if they FORCE you to block and then punish you for it. You're telling me Kanji's mind-games are nothing but successful? If I block, I get thrown. If I don't block I get combo'd. Tell me, where is the yomi in that? And now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never ONCE argued against Kanji have good normals.

[Klein]

Uh, doesn't mind-games include -reading that your opponent is going to be blocking-? I didn't say that was the extent of grapplers, I was just throwing an aspect out there. It's not a mind-game at all if they FORCE you to block and then punish you for it. You're telling me Kanji's mind-games are nothing but successful? If I block, I get thrown. If I don't block I get combo'd. Tell me, where is the yomi in that? And now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never ONCE argued against Kanji have good normals.

If you block you MIGHT get grabbed, if you guess wrong. If you hit him out of how he got in to his blockstring, he loses. If you jump out of an attempted grab, he loses. If you zone him, he loses. If you block and he doesn't go for a grab, back at neutral where he's weak, he kind of loses. If you block and he goes for an anti-air grab, he loses.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

If you block you MIGHT get grabbed, if you guess wrong. If you hit him out of how he got in to his blockstring, he loses. If you jump out of an attempted grab, he loses. If you zone him, he loses. If you block and he doesn't go for a grab, back at neutral where he's weak, he kind of loses. If you block and he goes for an anti-air grab, he loses.

...No, you don't understand. The instant he has you blocking his attacks he gets an assured inescapable command grab setup. There is no "might" unless the Kanji doesn't know it exists. You can't jump. The only options for it are counter-assault and bursting. If Liz counterassaults, he could decide to d command grab and STILL beat it out, only this time for MORE damage.

[Astaroth136]

Uh, doesn't mind-games include -reading that your opponent is going to be blocking-? I didn't say that was the extent of grapplers, I was just throwing an aspect out there. It's not a mind-game at all if they FORCE you to block and then punish you for it. You're telling me Kanji's mind-games are nothing but successful? If I block, I get thrown. If I don't block I get combo'd. Tell me, where is the yomi in that? And now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never ONCE argued against Kanji have good normals.

You're basically saying Kanji is throwing you out of blockstun, which is impossible. What you're referencing is 5B on block into command throw. 5B on block is -1, so you can dp, jump, short hop, or attack after it if you expect a grab. The mindgame of 5B on block is that if you're holding upback, a 5A can pop you. That 5A leads to minimal damage but gives corner positioning.

I can link some match vids of Japanese players both using this mindgame, as well as getting out of it.

[Klein]

...No, you don't understand. The instant he has you blocking his attacks he gets an assured inescapable command grab setup. There is no "might" unless the Kanji doesn't know it exists. You can't jump. The only options for it are counter-assault and bursting. If Liz counterassaults, he could decide to d command grab and STILL beat it out, only this time for MORE damage.

What?

5B is np, lol. I've jumped out of 5B>command grab vs Astaroth.

[LastStarSaviour]

@Astaroth: I'm not pissed about what you're saying about Kanji, that's your character and you have the right to your opinion.

For some reason, discussion about all the topics I bring up always seems to end in "You're just a bad player". It'd get to you too if you heard that shit after every response you get on a topic you're having issues with.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

I've tried dping out of it; I didn't have the frames. I didn't have the frames to jump, I didn't have the frames to short hop. I'm going to the lab to test it again, but I've done it before and it never worked. If I'm mistaken I apologize, but I've been going off of my experience where I had no options against it.

edit: Alright, my bad, guys. I guess I just fucked it up because the window is so tiny. This still doesn't change the stupidity of the match-up basically coming down to Maziodyne.

I'd also appreciate it if you didn't insult me in the future for being confused or misinformed; we don't all have a rich, storied history playing fighters. I'll happily admit that my only experience with grapplers is Tager, Clark/Daimon, and Kanji.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Klein]

@Astaroth: I'm not pissed about what you're saying about Kanji, that's your character and you have the right to your opinion.

For some reason, discussion about all the topics I bring up always seems to end in "You're just a bad player". It'd get to you too if you heard that shit after every response you get on a topic you're having issues with.

It's because your main problems are with basic stuff that's only not so basic in Blazblue, and with characters. Which would be fine, but you get all mad over it, and call situations or characters BS without putting in the right amount of research into the topic.

[Milln]

I've tried dping out of it; I didn't have the frames. I didn't have the frames to jump, I didn't have the frames to short hop. I'm going to the lab to test it again, but I've done it before and it never worked. If I'm mistaken I apologize, but I've been going off of my experience where I had no options against it.

edit: Alright, my bad, guys. I guess I just fucked it up because the window is so tiny. This still doesn't change the stupidity of the match-up basically coming down to Maziodyne.

I'd also appreciate it if you didn't insult me in the future for being confused or misinformed; we don't all have a rich, storied history playing fighters. I'll happily admit that my only experience with grapplers is Tager, Clark/Daimon, and Kanji.

I tried to tell ya, man.

@Volpe getting grabbed for blocking. Are you talking about his "YOU WANT SOME?" when you say getting grabbed for blocking? That thing has no hitstun or blockstun, that's why he's command grabbing you. You can't get grabbed for 6 frames after you come out of blockstun or hitstun. If you block it, you can jump the grab if you sense one, dude.

[Astaroth136]

Ranked matches are fun tonight. Fought a pretty good Mitsuru, barely won, and he rq. Next, I fought a godlike Mitsuru. I lost the first round fast, won the second round with 1 second left, and he raped me third round.

I need to check out Mitsuru's frame data. Her charge attacks feel neutral on block.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

EX Coup droit is safe, Fully charged Coup droit b is safe, everything else is -2 on block.

[Klein]

Sorry if what I said was offensive Volpe, just stuff getting silly.

[Milln]

EX Coup droit is safe, Fully charged Coup droit b is safe, everything else is -2 on block.

Ah, I thought so. Someone was telling me it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't. Thank you.

[g-ram]

Just gonna throw in my two cents. Now a few of you guys may not realize it but this is the first game where I actually haven't played the grappler and this idea floating around that grapples try to use their throws when they think the opponent is just blocking is a very basic misguided view. Gief in sf4 and Clark/daimon both use theirs as fast paced mixups, more on the latter. It is actually very very normal for a grappler to have a fast grab and nasty mixups on wake up.

Honestly the best way to deal with a grappler, especially like kanji with his slow shitty normals, is to use either zone him out CORRECTLY or to just dog him with pressure and fluster the player. Characters like aki tend to have a hard time doing this while characters like mitsuru with her long range pokes can do it, honestly it's just a matter of really really understanding your characters and the grapplers limits.

Tl:Dr I truly believe many of you guys need to just give it some time and learn it more. Just ask milln and some of the other kof guys. My daimon was a monster for a couple of months til people realized things about him and he is very similar to kanji.

[AlexSanteria]

I've been maining Akihiko and mainly Kanji, and I think that once people learn to play Kanji he'll get better. He's definitely a character I want to main and I plan on it. Getting the strategy to defeat each character is what I'm working on.

[Milln]

For Naimat so he has the ease of access:

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Systems/Attacking:_Throws_Throwteching

[Klein]

For Naimat so he has the ease of access:

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Systems/Attacking:_Throws_Throwteching

SO THAT'S WHY I'M SO BAD AT TICK THROWS IN THAT GAME

[LastStarSaviour]

It's because your main problems are with basic stuff that's only not so basic in Blazblue, and with characters. Which would be fine, but you get all mad over it, and call situations or characters BS without putting in the right amount of research into the topic.

I've always done my homework before posting. What are you talking about?

Edit: Just saw the Mitsuru frame data, damn these normals are slow as FUCK!

Edited August 25, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Klein]

I've always done my homework before posting. What are you talking about?

Edit: Just saw the Mitsuru frame data, damn these normals are slow as FUCK!

Your 5a is two frames slower than Noel's and 200~% longer range, basically same with 2a. Your 5B has a ton of utility including allowing you to buffer charges. Slow normals make sense for Mitsuru.

And getting mad at grapplers for being grapplers, and calling characters braindead on a whim is not doing your homework.

With all due respect.

[LastStarSaviour]

When have I referred to characters (other than Ragna) as braindead? Now you're putting words in my mouth.

Considering everyone else's normals in the game, they're still pretty slow. I never said they were a problem though, so yeah....

Last I checked, I gave a well-thought out explanation of what I didn't like about the characters i've ever gotten into a debate about. Never did I say I didn't like something, on a whim. I even made a video once trying to give an example. You need to pay more attention to my posts instead of making assumptions based on the end result of discussions.

Edit: You need to do your homework before trying to call someone out on a whim, good sir.

Edited August 25, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Klein]

I guess pre-edit calling Labrys brainless doesn't count.

And complaining that Yosuke's DP is the best in the game like it was some unbeatable, unpunishable option seems fairly weak on the homework department. And Grapplers, grapplers, grapplers.

[LastStarSaviour]

I still consider Yosuke's DP to be the best in the game, even after lab testing it (Chie's un-nerves me a bit now), and never once did I say it was unbeatable or whatever you're saying I said. AGAIN, you really need to read my posts before trying to put words in my mouth. As a matter of fact, the post I made wasn't even ABOUT his DP, it was about how I felt about the match-up in general. Naturally, everyone zoomed in on one aspect of it because it's easy to call me out and try to make me look stupid on that one subject then tackle everything I said as a whole.

I've never liked grapplers, and most likely, I never will, no matter what tier they are. You say I should like the wake-up situations they put me in because they're grapplers alone? What sense does that make? If I find something frustrating, of course i'm going to rage at it. Will I eventually accept it, hell yeah, life moves on. However, you need to come to a realization that not everyone thinks the same as you. While you don't have to agree with me, you do have to accept and stop trying to criticize someone for their opinions.

Edit: Yeah, Labrys made me rage that ONE day, due to the fact that I can't deal with her normals as well as I liked. I even went back and said I accepted it and tried to adjust to a style that fits the match-up, so yeah, I guess you could say that for the one instance, but that's it.

Edited August 25, 2012 by LastStarSaviour