Kiba Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) >Confused< Extend frame data says 22B has the same recovery (26 frames) and untechable time (45 frames) as 22C, but does 50 less damage. It does come out slightly faster, but that's the only difference I'm seeing. Well, I can certainly feel the difference in recovery. Hence why 22C > 6C feels a lot more sluggish than 22B > 6C. You'd feel it too if you had the game. This is definitely something you need to adjust for, yes. I don't need to adjust to it because it's nor mandatory nor essential. Tbh, it really doesn't matter. Heck, players could use 5BB > 5CC > 22B and that'll still be fine. Edited February 21, 2012 by Kiba
Airk Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Well, I can certainly feel the difference in recovery. Hence why 22C > 6C feels a lot more sluggish than 22B > 6C. You'd feel it too if you had the game. Unlikely, to be honest. =/ But there's probably some more undocumented hitstop nonsense or something that makes it work that way. I don't need to adjust to it because it's nor mandatory nor essential. Tbh, it really doesn't matter. Heck, players could use 5BB > 5CC > 22B and that'll still be fine. Sorry; Generic "you" as in "You, the person doing the combo" not "You, Kiba". =/ Edited February 21, 2012 by Airk
BatousaiJ Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Kiba's right about the 22B/22C feeling different. It also has something to do with untechable time after charging 22B vs 22C as a ender given 22B comes out faster, you can actually charge it longer to get the full knockdown where they can't tech as they're sliding. Frankly Airk, I'd take your opinions more seriously if you had the game(it would help if you were a better player too) and actually had some experience with it. You're just thoery crafting and that has very strict limitations. Reading what you were talking about using 623B as an anti-air basically put the nail in the coffin of that suspicion.
MikelAL93 Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Here I am with another round of questions, both in regards to combos and canceling with Tsubaki. 1). After a 2CC, what are the advantages and disadvantages after canceling out of it with a rapid cancel? 2). What are the benefits of using a fully-charged 22x during a combo? and how does it differ from an uncharged version during combos? Edited February 21, 2012 by MikelAL93
TheGreatReptar Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 2CC or 22C? I would never rapid 2CC, considering it's jump cancelable and special cancelable. If it hits, you have forever to confirm off of it too. You're also never going to get a full charge 22X to actually combo, since they take like 34-39 frames to charge. The only real difference between charged and uncharged versions is the attack level on them. You do however want 22X to hit quite low to the ground when you're doing a 236X>214X>22X ender, since if they're low enough to the ground they have extra untechable time for some reason.
MikelAL93 Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 2CC or 22C? I would never rapid 2CC, considering it's jump cancelable and special cancelable. If it hits, you have forever to confirm off of it too. You're also never going to get a full charge 22X to actually combo, since they take like 34-39 frames to charge. The only real difference between charged and uncharged versions is the attack level on them. You do however want 22X to hit quite low to the ground when you're doing a 236X>214X>22X ender, since if they're low enough to the ground they have extra untechable time for some reason. I actually meant 2CC during rapid cancels, but thanks though. And thank you for answering my question on 22X, I find it confusing because of the charge properties the move has, and whether it is better or not to fully charge it during a combo.
Airk Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Frankly Airk, I'd take your opinions more seriously if you had the game(it would help if you were a better player too) and actually had some experience with it. You're just thoery crafting and that has very strict limitations. Reading what you were talking about using 623B as an anti-air basically put the nail in the coffin of that suspicion. I... wasn't even TRYING to argue anything. I was literally just asking questions and then expressing confusion. Anyway, I think I've managed, through all my stupid theorycrafting, to come up with a couple of things that other people hadn't. If the price of that is that sometimes people have to smack me down and say "no, that's stupid." that's fine with me. I still think 623B was -intended- for use as an anti-air, or otherwise the invulnerability frames just don't make any sense. The fact that it's not actually useful as one is regrettable, but I don't really think I belaboured the point or anything. Don't worry though. I don't take anyone's opinions too seriously, so I wouldn't want anyone giving mine undue weight.
Errol Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) The other thing about 22x is that the 22x series has repeat proration. So, generally you're better off starting with a 22c in your combo, because it does more damage and you can follow it up without caring about the specific amount of untech time. Then you end with 22b, which lets you avoid the repeat proration, and yeah you can charge it longer too. Cuz, even if it is the final hit in the combo, if you incur that repeat proration, I think they'll tech faster (ed: well, this is my attempt to explain why it's so much easier to follow up 22b with 236236C.. the real thing is that 22b is easier to followup, not sure exactly why..). At any rate, alternate them, 22c then 22b, if you can. Might not be able to if you're doing something like a midscreen combo 22B>236C ender (rachel, valk, anyone else?) Edited February 21, 2012 by Errol
Airk Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 You are correct about repeat proration - it applies to the 2nd use of a move and onwards, and it DOES reduce untechable time, so a combo using two 22Bs will end with less untechable time than a combo using a 22C and a 22B.
Shruikon Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Actually that's a point whilst we're on the subject of the 22X series. Where is best to land this move for specific situations? For example: Land it when they're high to go into dash 5C 2C extender Land it low to finish with 3CC Where do I land it if I want to 236236 or 6A, and any other useful things I haven't mentioned?
Errol Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 Actually that's a point whilst we're on the subject of the 22X series. Where is best to land this move for specific situations? For example: Land it when they're high to go into dash 5C 2C extender Land it low to finish with 3CC Where do I land it if I want to 236236 or 6A, and any other useful things I haven't mentioned? For landing 236236C or 6A, there were two different methods that I remember working (CS2 knowledge). a. Land it high, no charge, and you can follow up b. land it low, in other words, charge to the max, and you can follow up Go in between and you're screwed. I charge it though, I can't remember if it's more consistent or what.
TheGreatReptar Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Hitting the 22B high at the end of a combo causes your opponent tech earlier now. The only thing somewhat significant you can get off a high 22B hit is 5C, which is only good for trying a gimmicking (debatable, I've seen Kuresu use it) air reset since the opponent will airtech from the 5C, and a slightly delayed 2C will hit them in the air meaty (if they neutral teched that is). Edited February 22, 2012 by TheGreatReptar
LunarSelenia Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 So I guess now that the game has been out for awhile in Japan, and just got released in NA, figures I can ask this question now since I started prioritizing her again. How much of my general mindset needs to change as far as neutral game goes? I know Batou was explaining a bit about it on the stream chat on Saturday, but I just wanted to get a clearer idea of how much CS2 neutral game changed from CSX. I know in CS2 I mainly prioritized and relied on charging after a KD, one charge into corner carry combos, keeping people in the corner with stuff like 22D unblockables/(air)throws/3C/2C stuff. I also know pressure has changed, charge cancels are more effective now, and prioritized (something I need to work on myself). I'm basically asking what's the difference between neutral game CS2 Tsubaki vs. CSX Tsubaki. I know her changes, I've seen her changed, but I guess I don't know how much they apply now, especially now that everyone has some time to figure things out about her.
BatousaiJ Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Hum... lets see. The thing to note is the use of 5B has changed quite a bit. In CS 2, it was more or less the be all, end all of our normals and we used it a lot to play our neutral game because for its range it was quick and it prorated well enough that comboing off of it was good. Now in extend, it's 1 frame slower, has longer recovery is not + on block and prorates worse than before making it not the go-to button to press at most situations at neutral. That isn't to say that it's worthless, in fact 5B > CC is a great way to play the neutral game still since a 5B CH > CC will still let you dash in to combo with 5A etc etc and if you CC the 5B on block, you can get in there and start your pressure even though it's not + on block. 5A is our quickest poke, prorates well to combo with a great pressure tool since you can branch off into a tick throw, frame trap 5A > 5B or keep it tight with no holes with 5A > 5C. A one charge none mugen combo starting off a 5A can net you 3-3.2k midscreen and around 3.5k in the corner. Our j.D charge time has increased and you'll be able to find time to hj.D for around one charge and then air dash forward/backwards to make it safe along with j.214/236 to change where you land. In the corner, you can use the falling j.D > j.C > 5C > 2C pick up combos to get back the charges used in the combo during the combo itself and while it's not the easiest combo to do, once you get it down, it's not too bad. So just be aware of the distance to your opponent and the match up. Use 5B > CC to control space and get in on people at midrange and when they're close, go in with 5A. Try not to use 236C unless you're calling out something obvious or have charges to back it up with cancels in to 22/214D. Use 236D a bit more sparingly since it isn't + on block anymore and always keep your opponent on their toe with the availability to cancel into other D moves off the 236/214D series.
LunarSelenia Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Mmm I read that 236C is worse now, but thanks for the info. I forgot about the falling j.D > j.C combos, I'll probably hit training mode and learn those. Also I got another question: Granted now we not only have to manage our charge but our meter as well, and I know her meter gain is not retarded like Ragna/Tager, but any tips on how to manage that along with charge? I know they say use meter as the situation calls for it, but I guess since we have to consider CAs/RC/Mugen is there any tips on managing that? I feel right now that I have a bad balance of charging/meter usage with her CSX changes. I tend to not have charge at times and forget to charge because I feel it's unsafe (or it's probably because I've been playing Relius for too long), or if I CA too much I realize I'm down to my last primer already w/out a burst, or realize I don't have enough meter to RC out of a move...I guess I'm not looking so much for "go-to" stuffs...but just general tips on how meter should be managed now that I have to implement Mugen more heavily in the lineup (considering I used a super if it was worth it, and almost close to NEVER used Mugen in CS2), as well as everything else considering she's more "unsafe" as far as her moves go, which I feel put priority on using and managing CA/RC/Burst (and with Tsu, CC) more so than the rest of the cast. Edit: Combo related question: just the j.623C > j.236A(w) > j.214D still provide good corner damage in general? My guess is that the falling j.D > j.C combos vs. the j.236A(w) combos are situational depending on what you use in the corner?
BatousaiJ Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Meter and charge management is a character specific thing still, especially the charge thing where when you fight against zoners that need time to setup their offense like Lambchops, Mu and Rachel you're better off doing minimum charge outside of hard knock downs in the corner and keep up the pressure as much as you can. Using CA is also one of those character match up things where when it's really hard to get out of a offensive lockdown, you're better off using the meter for CA. I'd put Carl(nee-san sandwich), Rachel(corner), Litchi, Valk all hard to stop once they get rolling. Most other characters, you can just barrier guard them out or use DP in gaps and etc. First of all, you should know what kind of damage you can deal off the most common starters with Mugen + X charges. If they have no more bursts left and you know you can do enough damage to kill them or get really close, go for it. Mugen is hard to pull off against really good players because you'll end up using RC to open to them up or CA to get them off you but as you become better at pressuring and blocking/getting out of pressure, you should be able to spare the Meter to maximize your damage. It also helps if you know how to burst bait using 214D. The 6CC > 623C > j.236(A) > j.214D is good in the corner not so much for the damage but for the fact that you can get a lot of charge back during the combo but there are alternatives to it that are much easier execution wise with similar benefits that are worth knowing too. There are some pit falls here and there where character hitboxes make some of her combos impossible to hit or make it more difficult so keep that in mind too. Overall, you're going to have to take more things into consideration ever before to play her "properly" but it's pretty fun that way since if you play her in a brain dead way, you won't get anywhere.
LunarSelenia Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Wow, okay thanks a lot Batou. Much to consider~ and much to learn. If we stream on Sat, I will def. play Tsubaki (too bad I have to work and can only play later....which means later in the night for everyone else XD) ONE more question before I hit up training mode:... can you run by the 214D Burst Bait again? XDDD I remember you saying it when JP Extend first came out, but I forgot it :3
Airk Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 I'm kinda curious about the whole "burst bait with 214D" thing too, since as far as I can tell, the best thing to do in Mugen is to spam 623D > j.236D > j.214D, so... uh... how can you weasel in a grounded 214D since you're in the air so much of the time?
pktazn Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 The burst bait is when you first activate Mugen considering most burst when you start it up. As far as I know if you're in the middle of the 3Ds there's no wait to burst bait unless you see it coming, stop one of your inputs, and then block it.
Kiba Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 can you run by the 214D Burst Bait again? XDDD I remember you saying it when JP Extend first came out, but I forgot it :3 You can, and here is a demonstration.
LunarSelenia Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Thanks all for the help, I gotta learn a lot now >3 *hyped* can't wait to get some games in again my friends on Sat (and get my butt kicked relearning, but that's part of the process) :3
BatousaiJ Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 can you run by the 214D Burst Bait again? XDDD I remember you saying it when JP Extend first came out, but I forgot it :3 If you see them burst as you're about to go into super flash for Mugen, you can do this too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUGXbtnMP-dtR8LTYjtZuC1g&feature=player_detailpage&v=_w8OwFn1gCE#t=699s If they're in the air, you can go straight into 3D series but if they're on the ground, you should cancel the 214D into a meaty 22D hit and go from there to make it so they can't recover quickly and block it.
ThunderboltZ28 Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 This probably sounds dumb, but I cannot get j.236A to whiff. How is this supposed to be done?
Adelheid Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 This probably sounds dumb, but I cannot get j.236A to whiff. How is this supposed to be done? In the 623C j.236A(whiff) j.214D stuff, right? Don't cancel into it immediately, wait for you to get a bit lower and them to get a bit higher. That's the only trick.
ThunderboltZ28 Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 In the 623C j.236A(whiff) j.214D stuff, right? Don't cancel into it immediately, wait for you to get a bit lower and them to get a bit higher. That's the only trick. Velvien told me to delay it a bit too. I've tried delaying it and they tech. Hmm...too many habits from CSII. I had a the same problem with the IAD combos. I eventually got that down. Back to training mode!
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