Airk Posted September 1, 2011 Posted September 1, 2011 Yeah, but it's made up for by the ridiculous hitbox that hits like, a foot above his head even though there's NOTHING THERE.
Rhiya Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Yeah, but it's made up for by the ridiculous hitbox that hits like, a foot above his head even though there's NOTHING THERE. Since I'm gonna pay 50 heat to anti-air somebody across the screen. Like I said, combos and gimmicks.
Airk Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Sorry. "made up for" should've been in quotes. :P
Airk Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 You can't. It's +3. Depending on when they like to throw it out, you can beat it out pre-emptively with a 5B or a 22A, but it's kind tight, timing-wise. 214 series doesn't work because Dead Spike has foot attribute. Probably your best bet for "punishing" it is to pre-emptively jump forward on him, because Dead Spike doesn't hit at full height until a few frames in, so if you can interrupt it, you're good, and jumping is quicker than trying to sneak in a 5B. It's still more or less predicated on KNOWING he's going to do it though.
Fallacy Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 Yeah, I was talking about when I know he will do it. Played a guy yesterday who would just dead spike whenever I blocked a 5c. I started to jump backwards but it just got me put in the corner and forward jump got me hit.
Airk Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 5B if you're in range. Otherwise, Try IB > 22A. If you're quick enough, it should get you a tasty counterhit. Otherwise, maybe you could do a neutral superjump > j.214X?
Errol Posted September 15, 2011 Posted September 15, 2011 5b->6cc->stuff? or jump combo should be a good 3k. theoretically anyway
HajinShinobi Posted October 2, 2011 Posted October 2, 2011 Ugh, I've been ripped to pieces in this matchup as of late. I had the matchup down pretty well but now it's like I've gotten scared to make approaches and I keep end up letting Ragna get in as he pleases..
Kiba Posted October 2, 2011 Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) You need to be careful at the neutral position because as Dusk said earlier back: Spaced Ragna 5B>Tsubaki 5b Spaced Ragna 5c>all Tsubaki normals Spaced Ragna j.C>2C Being at neutral requires you to use alot of backdashing, and if you're really good at reading your opponent you can use 22A. 22A beats Ragna's options at the start of the match too. Don't be so quick to use 5B at neutral either. It's ok, but just not all the time. Even if you're far you can't afford to get greedy with charge because a spaced air dashed JC can catch you. They could even use Hell's Fang (riskier option). You can IB Hell's Fang and punish with 2a - combo, but if you don't IB it, it's a stupid mix up factor which can fall into these: It's likely at first that if you don't IB it, they'll ID you after the hit. When you eventually learn to block it and not press buttons they'll either try to throw you or apply even more pressure. His DP > ours, even the D version, so depending on how well you know your opponent I wouldn't DP after HF hit. Learn to IB it. During pressure you need to know when to backdash or even outpoke him. His 6B can be beat with 2A on reaction and 2D can also be backdashed (not in the corner). Watch out for stuff like 5B - 2C(w) - 5B pressure too. It's a nuisence but when you're more alert about it, you can backdash or 22A him on reaction. When you're pressuring him however, you need to be careful about the blockstrings you do, especially if the Ragna know's how to IB -DP and they know when. 2BB - anything can be IB - DP'd easily. So you can do something like: 5B - 2B - 2A - 5B - 22C (Still holes of course but you'll need to mix it up) If the Ragna is really good my gameplay completely changes into trying to break their primers.You have 22C/236C for this. If you're going to jump into him for example use JD to avoid getting hit by 6A and then retaliate with JC. It doesn't work against his 5A though. Also try delaying blockstrings such as 5CC(delay) if you feel the player is mashing buttons. Other things: 623A trades with his Deadspike (it'll beat him if you're really close) Others basically have it. Try 623B. 623D is a fine reversal for extremely small gaps, but if you're trying to intercept something that leaves you more time, 623B is the tool you want. 623B loses to GH. You constantly need to be moving in this matchup. Use unblockables, even if you don't followup so you can get some time to breathe. 236D is good use to get in from not so far range (not so much neutral). Try not to get predictable however. You can score some fantastic CHs with it. His 5B can hit us if we use J214A/B/C on block despite the pushback. A baited ID results in us getting 3k + w/o stock and 4.7k+ with stock and a guaranteed corner carry with the right combos. Always use 5C - 5D - dash 5B - 5CC into stuff. If you're in the corner however you can do 5C - 6CC - 623C - J214D - 5C IAD stuff which is 5k. The character is quite annoying to play against, especially when we're in the corner blocking pressure where you have to sit there and take it. You also need to be extremely observent with his blockstrings. Don't always pressure him with a 5B starter on his wakeup. His 2B can go under it (It think it's spacing specific though). Edited October 3, 2011 by Kiba
CrescentSaber Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 ^That helps me A LOT. Sometimes I really get overwhelmed by Ragna and end up taking some risky maneuver that gets me punished.
Kiba Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 Glad it helped. Another thing. If you burst/CA while you're in the corner, don't charge there for too long because you're making it easier for Ragna to get back in and keep you in the corner. Either immediately try to get out or charge for a while so you can scare him with 236D approach.
Airk Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 Heh. I tend to have the opposite problem, where I get stupidly over aggressive after a burst, get hit, and put right back in the corner. >.< I got THRASHED by a Ragna player the other day, like, 1 for 5 sort of thing, where I swear by the end it was like playing an entirely different person than in the beginning. (They started out close, but weren't by the conclusion.)
CrescentSaber Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 Lol that's the thing about Ragna. Once he gets in and starts up, he is somewhat difficult to stop especially for Tsubaki.
LunarSelenia Posted December 14, 2011 Posted December 14, 2011 I've been having some trouble with Ragna like usual. I play against him regularly and I always feel uneasy playing him. Basically I've been watching out for his 6B/Gauntlet Hades/Throw mixup, but under pressure in the corner I seem to be eating Dead Spike a lot. I've been having some frequent matches where I end up with no charge, no meter, no burst, danger status from no barrier, in the corner. And then guard crushed until my death. I've been catching Ragna's jumps with 2C or 236C > 214D but charge is hard to come by. I usually don't have a charge to get out of his Dead Spike pressure with D DP, nor do I feel like risking a trade off with A vers. Is there a way to poke him out of his pressure? I think that's my biggest problem atm, I don't know when to take the offensive, I just know to block and block and block and hope to get lucky and catch him off guard.
Airk Posted December 15, 2011 Posted December 15, 2011 D-DP won't really help you much against Dead Spike anyway. It has only very marginally more invulnerability than the A version, and Dead Spike has an enormous number of active frames. Unless you are considering trying to DP whatever he does AFTERWARDS, in which case, the A version is fine. The trick to beating Dead Spike seems to be either A) Don't let him do it in the first place (by being on the offense or by being airborne) or B) figure out WHEN he's going to do it, and jump out or counterattack during its rather long startup. I find that I can get some limited success in this matchup by playing the "air footsies" game - aka trying to do a lot of varied, confusing jumps in the hopes of baiting an inferno divider/hell's fang/dead spike/other long recovery move. You'll actually mostly want to barrier while doing this, particularly if you're in the Inferno Divider Zone, and you'll need to be careful of his jump C and air throw, but if you're not predictable, it's not too bad. The only trouble with this is that Ragna gets a surprising amount of damage off an anti-air 5B or 5C, so getting hit by one of these while trying to jump out is bad. =/ Otherwise, you just need to really play the 5B footsies game, and correctly bait Inferno Divider once you're on the offense. Also, how is Ragna getting in on you? Depending on how he likes to approach, there are different tactics you can use. (If he just likes to dash in 5B, 214 series can ruin his day.) That is going to determine a good deal of what you need to do to beat him. My personal problem with Ragna is that I just can't seem to get a handle on how freaking FAR all his normals go. (That and the retarded crossup hitbox on j.B x.x)
LunarSelenia Posted December 15, 2011 Posted December 15, 2011 Thanks for a bit of insight on that Airk, I think the hardest thing about this matchup is that the Ragna I play with is starting to get in my head. He knows my general tricks so it's really hard to get in. the D DP talk I was mentioning was anything after Dead Spike. I usually get caught off guard from Inferno Divider now a lot more often from him so I'm usually put in the corner, and that's his first "Go to Pressure Option" when I wake up in the corner. So I'm stuck blocking pressure/mixup again. I do get clipped from Dead Spike or 5B a lot. Guess it's time to improve my 5B footsies I guess. I feel awkward throwing that out only because I know 5B Jesus kick can shut that down and it'll lead into damage. It depends, I've been sometimes getting him off guard with 5B even though I get poked out of it at times, I've been trying to avoid and space myself with backdash but his j.B/j.C have been clipping me AND I get put into air status. He's been predicting my 236C, if I space it wrong I get punished (lol then it's good times ._.;; ) but he usually opts to jump over it (which is good, because I can get out of that corner sometimes without needing a D charge). I'm trying to learn 236C > 214D on people who like to jump a lot over it. Other then that I've been trying to change up a lot of my pressure/go to options. He's already in my head where he knows when to ID out of my blockstrings. I have to stop mindlessly inputting 236D to get out of the corner when he approaches, or just 214D. Getting beat out by ID all day every day X__X;;; But thanks, I'll just end up playing against him some more and see what I can do. If anyone else has input I'd appreciate it =3
Kiba Posted December 15, 2011 Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) but under pressure in the corner I seem to be eating Dead Spike a lot. I've been having some frequent matches where I end up with no charge, no meter, no burst, danger status from no barrier, in the corner. And then guard crushed until my death. Is there a way to poke him out of his pressure? I think that's my biggest problem atm, I don't know when to take the offensive, I just know to block and block and block and hope to get lucky and catch him off guard. I think it's a bad idea to be looking out for ways to outpoke him of his pressure. Regardless, you can poke him out of 6B or you can throw him out of it. If he decides to use GH (and followup) and then intends to RC it into further J.C/D pressure, you can stop it with 5A, but I think that requires an IB of the GH followup. You can avoid DS by jumping and countering with J.C - combo, but it requires you to be alert. If you're feeling more brave you can 22A him out of it (requires IB from previous move to avoid the likeliness of a trade) Just make sure you are moving around alot (includes backdashing, air dashing) and you'd want to tap 5D at times. Having stock to boot will allow you to manipulate the way he approaches you. First things first, at the beginning of the match (unless the Ragna is quite passive) you'd want to get away to build some stock. If there are times where he's approaching you quite quickly you can use 22A to get CHs or time to gain more stock (Not to be used all the time however, and he can simply jump or block it and it's -9) For advise on blockstrings on where to stop pressure, or attempts to frame trap: During pressure you need to know when to backdash or even outpoke him. His 6B can be beat with 2A on reaction and 2D can also be backdashed (not in the corner). Watch out for stuff like 5B - 2C(w) - 5B pressure too. It's a nuisence but when you're more alert about it, you can backdash or 22A him on reaction. When you're pressuring him however, you need to be careful about the blockstrings you do, especially if the Ragna know's how to IB -DP and they know when. 2BB - anything can be IB - DP'd easily. So you can do something like: 5B - 2B - 2A - 5B - 22C (Still holes of course but you'll need to mix it up) If the Ragna is really good my gameplay completely changes into trying to break their primers.You have 22C/236C for this. If you're going to jump into him for example use JD to avoid getting hit by 6A and then retaliate with JC. It doesn't work against his 5A though. Also try delaying blockstrings such as 5CC(delay) if you feel the player is mashing buttons. No problem Lunar. Otherwise, you just need to really play the 5B footsies game, and correctly bait Inferno Divider once you're on the offense. I personally believe that this is a bad idea, and I wouldn't advise playing footsies with Ragna because his 5B and 5C are not nice. Edited December 15, 2011 by Kiba
MashThat5A Posted December 15, 2011 Posted December 15, 2011 When dealing with Ragna pressure, make sure you IB 2C and 5C. If he does 2C>5C or 5C>2C then IB and jump out. Know the range where all he can threaten you with is GH (usually after a barrier blocked max range 5C). If he tries to catch you dashing in with max range 5B, barrier break so his 5B whiffs, and dash 5B in. (Not enough people do this to bait whiffed normals imo) You should be safe to start pressure this way. Or you could just slap Akira every know and then while you're playing.
LunarSelenia Posted December 15, 2011 Posted December 15, 2011 @Kiba: Thank you very much Kiba, I kind of figured you couldn't poke him out, but I had to ask. It felt like I was missing something to this match considering I would be blocking forever, I think my general problem in my neutral game is getting people to block and taking the offensive. I'll definitely keep all of these in mind. Now I want some rematches >3 @Mashthat5A: LOL you know it was Akira. I don't slap him, but lately I've been getting Astral'd every match from him X__X;; god. dammit. But thanks for the tips *nod* My IB'ing needs to get a lot better seems like =3
LunarSelenia Posted December 15, 2011 Posted December 15, 2011 Thanks for the help guys...I know that I'm posting really close to the JP CSE release and a good majority of us are importing so a lot of this info will become useless, but I wanted to try and leave CS2 with a bit more knowledge of this matchup. Too much blocking from me~ =3
Airk Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Most of this info should still be relevant in CSX, except that your options are less good. :P
SolarMisae Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Or you could just slap Akira every know and then while you're playing. This is the best matchup advice ever. :3
CrescentSaber Posted December 16, 2011 Posted December 16, 2011 Thanks for the help guys...I know that I'm posting really close to the JP CSE release and a good majority of us are importing so a lot of this info will become useless, but I wanted to try and leave CS2 with a bit more knowledge of this matchup. Too much blocking from me~ =3 I suffer from the same problem. I always get stuck blocking a lot against Ragna and my primers seem to just vanish.
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