[CS2] Rachel vs. Tager

[Jason D.]

Better yet Jason, 6A can be cancelled into his command throws on hit or block. So if I see it impact onto cat chair I can make you eat a B buster as a throwcounter. And since you're Rachel. That's 4,500 Damage.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, but the window's pretty short for that. Not to mention that it's hard to tell at a moment's glance if your move is hitting Rachel proper, or hitting her cat chair. I mean, everyone can RC after hitting her cat chair, but I have NEVER seen it, aside from when people were going to RC anyway (Tends to happens a lot with Gauntlet Hades. And then they still don't block the cat chair anyway!) Let's see... Rachel goes from auto-guard start to attack in 20 frames, and B buster goes off in 6. 3 for A's invincibility. That's about 14 to 17 frames to react, and all this is not counting the time to rotate the stick. I'd think a Tager would have to be REALLY familiar with the Rachel's personal play style, and already have it buffered out, in order to get that off. Unless he just loves auto-piloting pink command throws. And the more likely 6A tick, delayed clean command throw would be too slow.

In theory. Not that this matters anyway, since it'll never work and should never be done.

[Manta]

The super armour also only lasts until the end of the active frames. If tager hits the 2C guardpoint really early, then command throw may be all that he has to stop him getting hit.

[Jason D.]

why? i fucking hate gadget finger. He can do spark bolt, 5D, 6A, agian gadget finger if you like backdash.

6A and 5D won't catch you if you 4D during your backdash. Though 5D does come extremely close. And double Gadget Finger is hilarious, but... not really effective. The deal is, it's just way too easy for Rachel to escape, and Tager can OTG her for REALLY good damage at all situations in which he'd otherwise do the Gadget Finger. It's just not worth it to pick her up.

[Manta]

6A and 5D won't catch you if you 4D during your backdash. Though 5D does come extremely close. And double Gadget Finger is hilarious, but... not really effective. The deal is, it's just way too easy for Rachel to escape, and Tager can OTG her for REALLY good damage at all situations in which he'd otherwise do the Gadget Finger. It's just not worth it to pick her up.

Not sure I agree. After a second atomic collider there's little reason to do anything other than some kind of ender. Gadget finger isn't just good for the mixup, it also gives 5 Heat and 6 secs of magnetism and when your other options are 2D or 236B, 4D, you can see why some tagers still GF.

But you're right about other causes of being downed. Being able to hit 5C > 6A on a downed Rachel is just priceless.

[Kuuhaku]

Yeah. I tested it out with Spark and got the same conclusion. Rachel's wind + backdash option limits Tager's options by a lot. He either has to take a risk and 5C or Sparkbolt (the risk is you can just hit 5A and smack him out of both and go into a full combo... with Sparkbolt it's even more risky because he'll lose the charge) or he can just let you get away.

So, rather than a 3 way mix up like it is with most characters, it's more like a 2 option guess. But, it's a guess where the odds are in your favor. Which... conceptually is kinda messed up since Tager is the one trying to mix you up.

To beat charged 6A setups- 3C to hit him out of it and combo. Or, you can just grab him out of it or wait until you see the attack come down to hit him. 3C is your safest option though.

[Manta]

I suppose having to spend wind just to get back to neutral is some kind of esoteric victory for Tager.

[kirbster]

3c is definitely the obvious answer to his charged 6a, but I somehow managed to beat it once with 6cd, it was pretty weird with the hitstop x infinity lol. I think there's only so many hits he can absorb with his super armor, because he couldn't take them all and I came out on top in that exchange. I should test it out whenever I have the chance.

[Manta]

The armour can only take 1500 points of non-combo-prorated damage. So yeah, 6C will beat it.

[tofurr]

So... Tager gimmicks. I get blown-up by these too much. What are some common Tager gimmicks and how do you react to them as Rachel?

[Tari]

Don't mash tech in mid-air if he's been combo-ing you. Chances are it's an Atomic Collider reset.

If you're magnetized and he whiffs any magnetic move (Atomic Collider, any D move, Gadget Finger, 6A, etc.) while you're OTG, there's a reasonable chance that it's a throw/AC setup. Be careful when teching. I believe winded backstep beats those options, though I can't say for sure.

Be careful when you block Magnatech Wheel if Tager has 100 meter, as he'll probably cancel it into a 360B or 3C before the last hit. If you're in the air blocking, it'll probably be Atomic Collider.

Honestly, you just want to keep the game on your terms. If Tager gets in on you and/or corners you, you just have to guess right off of one of those Gadget Fingers (or Gadget Flingers, though other than for 360s, I actually think the Flinger is easier to react to) and get yourself the hell outta dodge. Of course, the Tager player might opt to not Gadget you, but the same concept applies. Get out of there. Otherwise, just space yourself carefully and use 6A and 6B to your full advantage while zoning him. If you get a good counterhit with basically anything, combo him to hell, do your damage, then back off again and burn more time poking him with forks.

Tager's gimmicks only really come into play if you're magnetized, but if you play carefully, the only way he's likely to magnetize you is Spark Bolt, and then you can just use the fork and your zoning tools to space yourself until it wears off.

It's a pretty boring matchup. If you get a life lead at any point under the, say 45 second mark, you can just wind around the screen pointlessly and there's almost nothing Tager can do about it (except pray he Atomic Colliders you during a jump or something).

I find that I only lose this matchup when I'm being impatient or when I fail to space myself properly and get sledged out of a summon (./cough).

You know, actually, the Tager forum has an amazing list of gimmicks and setups. There are so many listed there, though, so I'm not sure if the list will actually be of great use to you unless you want to play Tager. :P

Edited September 8, 2011 by Tari

[gli]

I think (read: think. from my experience) if the rachel plays a mostly reactive zoning method against tager she has a much better chance. realistically you're not getting much damage from pure zoning and he can sledge you on the ground. get a pumpkin and/or frog out, and go to sleep on couch nago right outside sledge range until he tries to approach. let the flowchart begin

sledges (regardless of the reason) = 6b

tried to kill george = 6b

superjump = 6a/ run under

backdashes = free approach/combo with pumpkin

if he has sparkbolt you might want to move away though.

l want to focus on tager's hitboxes and improve my matchup knowledge when magnetized soon. 6b seems to turn from gdlk to shit when l try to trade with his d's, but 6a might guardpoint the moves. lt's definitey easy to lose once in tager's grasp if you fuck up even once, but it the same respect if the rachel is good at punishment (l love this word!), you can one-shot him to the corner from most hits, particularly 6a/b, or frog and pumpkin - and keep him in guard bonus.

oo bad the only gdlk tager on psn is lostsoul, and we lag like crazy x.x

in neutral, l feel that the few seconds before he gets sb you should stay on the ground and get wind. once he has it take to superjumping, get every summon out. he runs the risk of getting hit by george once you land. even if you block it, it's pretty hard for tager to deal with everything around him.

dont forget to use wind for mobility. dont be scared to 44d or 1d after a high george summon, or wind lobelias in funny directions when it's safe (random poles save lives).

Further discussion if needed.

[Sindelian]

Are there any other options besides 6B against sledge, but I feel like it just postpones the issue. Often times they tech forward and do a long sledge and they're back in front of me.

[Tari]

You can just 6B him again after that if he insists on sledging as an approach. If you really don't want to use 6B, you can try spacing yourself and punishing after sledge, but it's far more risky. Jumping over it works, as does 3C, but nothing's quite as simple as 6B.

You can combo off of 6B CH if you'd like, or you can take a moment to summon stuff before Tager can get back up and try to approach again. Every 6B CH you land gives you options, basically.

[KoopaDoopa]

Are there any other options besides 6B against sledge, but I feel like it just postpones the issue. Often times they tech forward and do a long sledge and they're back in front of me.

6CD is also a viable option against sledge. If you're out of wind you can poke with 2A but oftentimes it's safer just to backdash or jump.

Edit: Or 6B again, like what Tari said.

[Sindelian]

This kind of applies to anyone, but what should I do against people who just block eeeeeeverything? They just completely see my mix ups coming and can always detect cross overs.

This usually applies to Tagers, I guess they realize that a Tager who knows how to block is unstoppable.

[Kuuhaku]

It means you're auto-piloting your block strings.

[kirbster]

Nobody can block 50/50 mixups 100% of the time. You can just do tight blockstrings with several overheads in a row (5b > 2d > j.a > j.b > land and repeat, or fuzzy guard setups, etc.), and don't forget to mix in 2b after 5b. Tager is particularly susceptible to those mixups since he's so fat lol. If they manage to block everything, you should be fine if you finish the blockstring with 6b and jump cancel back to safety and resume neutral game.

[Kuuhaku]

Yeah. Just check your gameplay video and watch your block strings. If you can see a clear pattern, then so can your opponent.

[CrescentSaber]

I think I may have that problem myself. I seem to get blocked a lot as both Tsubaki and as Rachel.

[Nhur]

Remeber add some grabs to your mixups. You not only win the damage of maked from a grab + combo, you win too many more openings in his defense game, because he will try to make his grabs and got some CH in your favour

In other hand you always can play like a turtle throw some pumpkim and punish him when tager try to move or charge

[TD]

two (rather annoying, l might add) things tager can do in neutral:

the first: killing george. right when he's about to land tager can j.b george if the poor frog happens to be under him. with pumpkin/pole out and near this is punishable, but oftentimes without the other summons rachel is rarely able to punish this consistently. not particularly dangerous, just be careful.

second thing: this may be known already, tager gets an extra gatling from hitting george. with spark bolt (to a lesser extent, sledge) he can punish players who mistake his killing george as a chance to get in. do be wary of this. be ready to ib spark bolt if tager does something like that body slam (6c?) or the stomp, usually the only time he'll even commit to such risky moves is to bait with this trick. (dash barrier is important for instantly stopping your momentum if you attempted to punish him for this. otherwise spark bolt will still hit due to dashing recovery.)

l have some more stuff but l have to make sense of it -.-

[Deikan]

I keep getting blown up by that red skinned loser! Is there a way to escape is pressure? Everytime I try to get away I get pulled in and slammed silly and the cycle never ends.

I really need help, I hate losing to Tager!

Edited December 10, 2011 by Deikan

[gli]

Escaping Tager pressure is a guessing game.

• If you have meter you can just block and counter assault but this requires you to be on the ground where you are open to 360/720. A bad CA means it can be baited so that's a free 360/720 for Tager in addition to you losing 50 meter.
  
• 
  
• You can try to jump out in which case Tager can Atomic Collider to punish.
  
• 
  
• One of Rachel's strongest options is to backdash + wind.
  
• You can punish bad Sledges with IB > 5A.
  
• Save a Gold Burst and try to look for holes to burst through.
  

Basically you don't want to be magnetized at all in this match-up if it's possible.

Notice I say you "can" do certain things. It's up to you to get a read on the opponent and to use the option most useful.

Edited December 10, 2011 by glirandly

[Kronikhall]

this match up sucks. not because it's in tager's favor or anything, but because to win, rachel has to play really lamely. 6B is your friend, but don't be too obvious or you can get grabbed by a well spaced 360a. and if you're magnetized, be even more careful about using it. zone him, if you can get frog to activate on him, get in there and mix him up. take what damage you can get and gtfo to zone him again. rinse and repeat as needed. pumpkin's good for baiting all sledges if it's placed right and you wind it correctly (by that i mean it can even cover sledge and its follow up). don't get greedy with mix up or pressure.

[Deikan]

this match up sucks. not because it's in tager's favor or anything, but because to win, rachel has to play really lamely. 6B is your friend, but don't be too obvious or you can get grabbed by a well spaced 360a. and if you're magnetized, be even more careful about using it. zone him, if you can get frog to activate on him, get in there and mix him up. take what damage you can get and gtfo to zone him again. rinse and repeat as needed. pumpkin's good for baiting all sledges if it's placed right and you wind it correctly (by that i mean it can even cover sledge and its follow up). don't get greedy with mix up or pressure.

I tried zoning him with TBs, pumpkins and ISs but his moves have projectile armor. I zone him carefully and I still get magnetize and put under his spd pressure. Playing lame isn't doing it for me, I keep getting creamed and making myself look free each time I play him, it's like fighting Zangief with a projectile.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Deikan