Zeik56 Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 The testing Arcsys gets vs having a game that tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands people play is no contest. In a multiplayer game, you will NEVER ever get anything right the first time. It just doesn't happen. You can only try your best. Your best balance testing is the game being released. The company is generally pretty good when it comes to improving the game, with the exception of Tager (Tager is supposed to be bad). All we can wait for is a patch. It may be impossible to perfectly balance a game on the first try (or ever for that matter) but there are still things like Akihiko's worthless super, Mitsuru's practically un-punishable DP, Chie's fatal counter poke, etc, that are stupid any way you look at it and a company as experienced as ArcSys really should know better. I think Marie is almost certain to get in, but not until a console release or revision, after she's out in the RPG obviously. I don't know what makes people think Marie is so important that she is going to be in this game. I have yet to see anything to suggest she's more than a new S. Link with a possible (probable) connection to the Velvet Room. I'll honestly be surprised if she is even mentioned in this game at all.
Jocelot Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 Takaya would've been cool, mainly because I liked his voice so much.
Henaki Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) It may be impossible to perfectly balance a game on the first try (or ever for that matter) but there are still things like Akihiko's worthless super, Mitsuru's practically un-punishable DP, Chie's fatal counter poke, etc, that are stupid any way you look at it and a company as experienced as ArcSys really should know better. none of these things are "chie's parry". Which is the only thing that strikes me as completely stupid. Everything else looks like a tuning problem or overlooked imo. You have to understand that sometimes things get nerfed before release and the general use of those things has to suffer because the time allotted. Internally, they could have wanted Akihiko's supers to be better, but that ended up making him from an observation standpoint, too good. Release dates make balance a tricky act. The only thing that I look at is Chie's parry and think "why is this even in the game at all in this state?" It's easy to look at these things from the outside and just go "is Arcsys insane?" but the reality is, for most of these things, deadline and internal dev knowledge likely caused more of these problems than any sort of incompetence. Edited April 8, 2012 by Henaki
Starlight777 Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 Takaya would've been cool, mainly because I liked his voice so much. If "Albino Hippie Jesus" were to make the roster I'd probably main him. That's impossible though.
Zeik56 Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) none of these things are "chie's parry". Which is the only thing that strikes me as completely stupid. Everything else looks like a tuning problem or overlooked imo. You have to understand that sometimes things get nerfed before release and the general use of those things has to suffer because the time allotted. Internally, they could have wanted Akihiko's supers to be better, but that ended up making him from an observation standpoint, too good. The super would have to have been severely overpowered to a ridiculous degree to make Akihiko "too good". It's not like that super is his one and only flaw, even if it was ridiculously good he'd still likely be worse than Mitsuru. And I do consider those things stupid. Obviously deadlines are an issue and can cause issues with balance, but the fact that some of these things got put in the game at all in such a state makes me question things. (There's no logical reason a DP should be as hard to punish as Mitsuru's. That's simply not how DP's are meant to work.) I certainly don't consider ArcSys "incompetent", but I don't think everything can just be excused away. Hopefully they'll be fixed as time goes by and all will be well, but it doesn't change the fact that they made some poor decisions going in. I'm not trying to put down the game or ArcSys, just so we're clear. ArcSys is a great developer and this honestly looks to be one of their best games to date, but it has plenty of room for improvement and I want to see those improvements made. Edited April 8, 2012 by Zeik56
Koozebanian Fazoob Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) They use their evokers during their Mortal Blows. Akihiko uses his during Ziodyne as well. It may be impossible to perfectly balance a game on the first try (or ever for that matter) but there are still things like Akihiko's worthless super, Mitsuru's practically un-punishable DP, Chie's fatal counter poke, etc, that are stupid any way you look at it and a company as experienced as ArcSys really should know better. Mitsuru's DP is very punishable. What makes it nasty is that it's cancelable on block into Bufula, so you basically have to guess if you have to punish the DP or punish the followup super. There may be option selects to beat both for some characters even! It's a really, really good R-Action, but that's more because it's stupidly fast and combos to Bufula than anything else. I honestly think Kanji's R-Action is better than Mitsuru's anyway. Hits multiple times, MUCH longer active time, and causes paralysis on hit. It's pretty hard to get a strong punish on too! I don't know what makes people think Marie is so important that she is going to be in this game. I have yet to see anything to suggest she's more than a new S. Link with a possible (probable) connection to the Velvet Room. I'll honestly be surprised if she is even mentioned in this game at all. Edit2: Okay yeah, guess I was wrong, doesn't seem like there actually is confirmation she will be playable. I was under the assumption that she was, so if she's just an S-Link then I doubt she would make it into the fighting game. n Release dates make balance a tricky act. The only thing that I look at is Chie's parry and think "why is this even in the game at all in this state?" Really it's just the recovery time that's so dumb, you can't react to it on wiff, which makes no sense. But really it's not even that good of an R-Action otherwise, the counter attack has a ton of startup. You can safe jump against it and a few low normals will cause it to wiff as well. More than anything it's just that it's Chie who has it. Meanwhile Akihiko gets stuck with the worst R-Action in the game, in terms of defense anyway. :I Edited April 8, 2012 by Koozebanian Fazoob
Zeik56 Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) Mitsuru's DP is very punishable. What makes it nasty is that it's cancelable on block into Bufula, so you basically have to guess if you have to punish the DP or punish the followup super. There may be option selects to beat both for some characters even! It's a really, really good R-Action, but that's more because it's stupidly fast and combos to Bufula than anything else. I'd consider that a downside if it wasn't so easy to get meter in this game. (And Mitsuru even has extra ways to gain meter.) Also Chie's counter is still really good even ignoring how spammable it is, simply given how much damage she is able to get off of it. She's the only character that can get like 4k directly off their R-action. Edited April 8, 2012 by Zeik56
Koozebanian Fazoob Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) It's a pretty fair downside that you have to spend 50 SP and get ~10% in blue life for a DP that might just get punished anyway. Also Chie's counter is still really good even ignoring how spammable it is, simply given how much damage she is able to get off of it. She's the only character that can get like 4k directly off their R-action. Not sure what all her options with it are but I was pretty sure you had to spend meter to combo off it? You don't get anything at mid at all without OMB or her Awakening Super from what I know. I don't know about corner though. Also Labrys can get a full combo off hers on CH even at midscreen, though hers is suitably slow to compensate. (Akihiko can combo off his for big damage for free too but only in specific situations) Edit: Oh, can't Naoto get big combos off one of her R-Actions for free? Maybe I'm getting it mixed up with her throw. Edited April 8, 2012 by Koozebanian Fazoob
Zeik56 Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 (edited) The problem with Mitsuru's DP is that it's almost impossible to safely punish it when she has meter. You're in blockstun while she's in the air and if you try to rush in and punish her on the ground you risk a Bufula to the face. You can try to anticipate the Bufula and dodge to the other side, but if you guess wrong then she can punish you. If you don't do anything then she simply gets out for free. A little blue life and some potential SP is negligible for such a low risk option that gets you out of pressure. Anyway, I don't want to focus on that too much, as I don't want to imply that it's the sole factor that contributes to her being OP. (If she wasn't so good in every other way it might be excusable.) As for Chie, yeah, she has to be in the corner to combo off it for free, but since it carries so far that's not that hard to do. Though even without a combo it does 1.8k or so, which is still rather strong considering Yosuke gets like 500 total. I don't think Naoto can get much off her's, since it knocks them away so far, but maybe in the corner. She does get some good options off her throw though. Edited April 8, 2012 by Zeik56
Koozebanian Fazoob Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 Yeah, that's my take on Mitsuru's R-Action. It's real good, but it's really just one part of why she's good. Yosuke's R-Action ... I have no idea what is up with it. Can you combo off it on hit with a super even? It seems pretty awful at a glance but I'm not sure I understand how it even works.
Guymam Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 Yosuke's R-Action give some pretty spectacular knockdown.
AchedSphinx Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I'm somewhat questioning her legitimacy as a character at the moment.
Diveman Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Shadow Labrys...what the f...did I just watch? I seriously cant imagine her fighting like eddie/carl with that huge persona backing her up.
Starlight777 Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Shadow Labrys...what the f...did I just watch? I seriously cant imagine her fighting like eddie/carl with that huge persona backing her up. The interesting part is that it's always out. I wonder how easy it will be to break?
Zeik56 Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 It's always out but I doubt it's always active. I'm sure it works like Nirvana where you can't actually hit it unless it's doing something.
Tari Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 It's always out but I doubt it's always active. I'm sure it works like Nirvana where you can't actually hit it unless it's doing something. To back this up, in the old arcade mode videos, during the S. Labrys boss fight, hitting her while her summon was on screen would only cause a card to break if she was actively trying to use it.
Dakanya Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I don't know if this has been mentioned here but it's not on the wiki and it should be... Fear not only makes any hit a fatal counter but it also makes grabs unbreakable. source http://w.livedoor.jp/p4u_matome/d/%a5%b7%a5%b9%a5%c6%a5%e0#content_8_23
Kiba Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I got it down. Thanks dude! That's quite interesting!
Diveman Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I don't know if this has been mentioned here but it's not on the wiki and it should be... Fear not only makes any hit a fatal counter but it also makes grabs unbreakable. source http://w.livedoor.jp/p4u_matome/d/%a5%b7%a5%b9%a5%c6%a5%e0#content_8_23 oooh thats so cool, no wonder I see Elizabeth throwing people day and night.
Jourdal Posted April 12, 2012 Posted April 12, 2012 According to fubarduck on twitter "Persona 4 Ultimate "Version Up" for Japanese arcades confirmed for May. Sounds like a balance patch." Thats all he mentioned
Balmung92 Posted April 12, 2012 Posted April 12, 2012 Wow I thought for sure they would wait till SBO was over. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if it actually is a balance patch.
shtkn Posted April 12, 2012 Posted April 12, 2012 one can only hope. hopefully it's just fixing stupid stuff like chie 5B fatal and mitsuru bufudyne
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