YukiBlue Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 His moves don't connect well mid-screenCould you elaborate on this? Does this mean you just have to confirm pretty much under their noses?
Fluck Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 For real, what are Relius' glaring weaknesses? I'm looking forward to play with him because he looks interesting, But the only thing I have seen as a glaring weakness so far is how much he relies on Ignis for damage. But that was obvious. Enlighten me. His mix-up is bad to mediocre, and that's even with Ignis present. The doll's main contribution to his offensive game is by providing strong pressure and frame-traps, not mix-up. He also needs to summon Ignis, which might be more of a problem than you think, especially since without Ignis, his neutral is extremely mediocre and predictable. Opponents will definitely try to stop you from summoning her. Managing doll meter is much harder than you would think as well.
Urichinan Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Could you elaborate on this? Does this mean you just have to confirm pretty much under their noses? His normals whiff at certain ranges, like from the tip of 5B, you can't connect 6B, 5C, 2C or 3C for example.
YukiBlue Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 But I'd assume you could 6D from the tip of 5B? Ah well, Kinda' lame but it's not that bad. Thanks for the reply.
Kurushii Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Ignis would have to be out when you confirmed that 5B to even do 6D. If my 5B hits at max distance and she isnt out ill normally just 214A into a different followup.
Guardian Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Relius deep jC > rising jC is not a fuzzy. A fuzzy is when you're blocking low, but instead of having your regular crouching hitbox you retain your standing hitbox from the deep jump-in so that you can be hit easier with a rising normal. What you have isn't a fuzzy, and Valk's mix-up isn't a fuzzy either. They're both an instant-over-head, but the difference is Valk's is actually good. When I tested it like your video, I could: jump, DP, and 5A/2A him out of the start-up of jC. There's a really big gap in between the two hits. A real fuzzy you can't do any of this because there is no gap. You're forced to block. I hope I'm not coming off as a dick trying to tell you guys what a fuzzy is. This term has been used a lot of these boards, and most of the time it's used wrong. I'm just trying to get you to understand something. I don't understand how you can define what a fuzzy is (which is what the video shows), then turn right around and say it's not a fuzzy. Valk's j.C is an instant overhead, but can also be used in fuzzy attempts. Just because there's a gap that you can counter, doesn't mean it's not a fuzzy guard. If that's the case, then there are no legit fuzzy guards in this game (unless you're already blocking a projectile). This is just the type of fuzzy guard that the system mechanics allow. Yes you can DP or even jump out of it, but would you take that chance in an actual match? There's always a way out of most setups in the game, and that's fine, but just b/c there's a way out doesn't mean it kills the mix up. After a deep j.C you can: -land, 3C/2B -land, throw -land, 236A~2D -rising j.C Outside of SRK/reversal super, I personally wouldn't dare try any of those other options against a competent player unless I was 1000% sure the fuzzy was coming. But hey it's all good, since I'm wrong I'll just keep my strats to myself.
Spark Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 If there's a gap it means that it is not a fuzzy guard, because if there is a gap you would lose the forced standing hit box that the fuzzy guard gives you. If you lose the forced standing hit box, your rising jump normal would most likely whiff unless it hits deep enough to hit people rising anyway in which case it's just an instant overhead. Since a fuzzy guard can't have a gap it means that it cannot be DPed, jumped, back dashed, or poked out of. But this also means that if you try to DP/mash/whatever out of the fuzzy(just in case they mess up and there's a gap or whatever) and there isn't a gap your character will remain blocking. Actually there is only one situation that I know of where you can escape a fuzzy guard without a gap, and that's when you try to fuzzy them when they're recovering from stagger. Ie, Ragna 22C wait > RC > j.A as you recover will hit you standing even if you're crouching during the recovery of 22C because the forced block of stagger recovery gives you a standing hitbox regardless of what you're doing. However in this situation if you burst during recovery of stagger it will be gold(this worked in CS1 at least I'm not 100% sure if it's been changed). Also there are plenty of fuzzy guards in the game that don't use projectiles, it's just a lot of them are difficult to set up or are expensive meter wise. Ie Hakumen can deep jump in j.B > jump cancel > rising j.B > j.214C, Ragna can 6B RC > j.A > j.C > j.D, Jin Deep jump in j.2C > jump cancel > j.2C > RC > j.2C. It's just hard to do jump in and land into a rising jump normal because of the pseudo landing recovery every move has. Where you can cancel into FD and other attacks/specials, but not into running or jumping for a few frames(this is why you can't jump out of a 720 if you whiff a move on the way down).
Kurushii Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Dropping that godlike knowledge. Thanks Spark for clearing that up.
iTz.WiiTarD Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 hey i have just recently got the game, a couple of things id like to share, 236d, does not work well in the corner i noticed, after hit deep 3c, if u 214d it will hit if they roll backwards, but not sure if it will whiff on neatural, one of my downfalls on playin relius is i tend to use 2d way to much, which kills my bar alot, jus wondering on which corner combo people tend to use for good damage/ignis gauge. One i tend to use is 5b-3c- 236c-214a dash -5c-6b-sjb-jc-j8d-jc-214b-land 5c-4d-3c, then leaves u good oki,
Kurushii Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 hey i have just recently got the game, a couple of things id like to share, 236d, does not work well in the corner i noticed, after hit deep 3c, if u 214d it will hit if they roll backwards, but not sure if it will whiff on neatural, one of my downfalls on playin relius is i tend to use 2d way to much, which kills my bar alot, jus wondering on which corner combo people tend to use for good damage/ignis gauge. One i tend to use is 5b-3c- 236c-214a dash -5c-6b-sjb-jc-j8d-jc-214b-land 5c-4d-3c, then leaves u good oki, 236D doesn't work as fully intended in the corner cause of the limitations of movement. I love using 214D as a corner oki. 2D spam is something you'll have to kill quick. I remember I had the same problem early on. Start to work 6D into your system instead. Everyone that has watched me play recently has seen my habit of almost blowing Ignis up with my corner combo costs. So I can't even talk about good Ignis gauge saving for corners LOL. After I get the technical and combo guide up and running i'm going back into the lab for combo making. Maybe someone else here will give you some good, decent cost corner combos. :3
kotokot Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) For real, what are Relius' glaring weaknesses? I'm looking forward to play with him because he looks interesting, But the only thing I have seen as a glaring weakness so far is how much he relies on Ignis for damage. But that was obvious. Enlighten me. 8F jab%) though 2A is a bit faster lol Edited January 13, 2012 by kotokot
Kurushii Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 If everyone can spend a minute of their time and check out the "Relius Clover Technical Guide and Discussion" thread. I'll greatly appreciate any comments posted here on what should be added to the content list or changes to the layout before I open it up. I personally feel the layout is almost done so I can start working on the combo thread. That all said.... /sleep
iTz.WiiTarD Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 thx for the tips kuru, ill start working on that, ill be hitting the lab a little later see what i can find combo wise, i have a few ideas to try so ill get back to you all on that one.
St1ckBuG Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 If there's a gap it means that it is not a fuzzy guard, because if there is a gap you would lose the forced standing hit box that the fuzzy guard gives you. If you lose the forced standing hit box, your rising jump normal would most likely whiff unless it hits deep enough to hit people rising anyway in which case it's just an instant overhead. Since a fuzzy guard can't have a gap it means that it cannot be DPed, jumped, back dashed, or poked out of. But this also means that if you try to DP/mash/whatever out of the fuzzy(just in case they mess up and there's a gap or whatever) and there isn't a gap your character will remain blocking. Actually there is only one situation that I know of where you can escape a fuzzy guard without a gap, and that's when you try to fuzzy them when they're recovering from stagger. Ie, Ragna 22C wait > RC > j.A as you recover will hit you standing even if you're crouching during the recovery of 22C because the forced block of stagger recovery gives you a standing hitbox regardless of what you're doing. However in this situation if you burst during recovery of stagger it will be gold(this worked in CS1 at least I'm not 100% sure if it's been changed). Also there are plenty of fuzzy guards in the game that don't use projectiles, it's just a lot of them are difficult to set up or are expensive meter wise. Ie Hakumen can deep jump in j.B > jump cancel > rising j.B > j.214C, Ragna can 6B RC > j.A > j.C > j.D, Jin Deep jump in j.2C > jump cancel > j.2C > RC > j.2C. It's just hard to do jump in and land into a rising jump normal because of the pseudo landing recovery every move has. Where you can cancel into FD and other attacks/specials, but not into running or jumping for a few frames(this is why you can't jump out of a 720 if you whiff a move on the way down). But hey it's all good, since I'm wrong I'll just keep my strats to myself. I'm trying to clear up the definition of a fuzzy. And I'm not saying the instant overhead is bad, I'm just saying it loses to a lot of things, not to mention it's very picky. Are you seriously getting mad that I corrected your use of the term 'fuzzy guard' when it was wrong? Just read Spark's post. My thread gets closed for trying to generate some hype in the BB community and then I have people getting mad at me when I try to spread smart. Why do I even try anymore?
Urichinan Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 I'm trying to clear up the definition of a fuzzy. And I'm not saying the instant overhead is bad, I'm just saying it loses to a lot of things, not to mention it's very picky. Are you seriously getting mad that I corrected your use of the term 'fuzzy guard' when it was wrong? Just read Spark's post. My thread gets closed for trying to generate some hype in the BB community and then I have people getting mad at me when I try to spread smart. Why do I even try anymore? Don't ever stop St1ckBuG, it's people like you that make communities great. If he's getting salty at you correcting him, then he's just immature. Other people will read your post and learn something that can be important to Relius' mixup game. They'll know what's safe and what isn't. I personally appreciate all you've been doing for the BB community and DL in general, so keep at it! Kurushii, I love the Technical Threas, it look fantastic, it's very well organized.
Toasty Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Speaking of 214D, I've been working on a corner unblockable reset with it, but I haven't yet tested all of the options. I know the setup will beat tech rolls or no tech at all, but I still need to make sure it can beat (non-reversal) mashing or jump-outs. I will post more about it once I'm able to test it out later today (which should be around 2:00).
iTz.WiiTarD Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 well like i said id work on a corner combo, this is what i got, decent damage 4.1k, little bar works out jus over 3k gauge. 5b - 3c - id - 214a - dash 5c - 6b - jc - id - 214a - fallin jc - land 2c - 4d - 3c oki orfor damage do fallin jc - 2c - 6c - 4d - special. Sorry for any mistakes in the notations also that combo will even work with 3 jabs (damage maybe will be bad tho) jus thought to share with you all
Toasty Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) well like i said id work on a corner combo, this is what i got, decent damage 4.1k, little bar works out jus over 3k gauge. 5b - 3c - id - 214a - dash 5c - 6b - jc - id - 214a - fallin jc - land 2c - 4d - 3c oki orfor damage do fallin jc - 2c - 6c - 4d - special. Sorry for any mistakes in the notations also that combo will even work with 3 jabs (damage maybe will be bad tho) jus thought to share with you all You can throw in a jB in between the 6B and the jC in your combo, but make sure you super jump so the jC doesn't whiff. Other than that, I would say that should be your main corner BnB, since it does good damage and leaves you with oki without using too much meter (you can also neutral jump jD after the last 3C to get some meter back while still getting oki with a falling jC afterwards, but other oki options are still available). Edited January 13, 2012 by Toasty
C0R Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 If everyone can spend a minute of their time and check out the "Relius Clover Technical Guide and Discussion" thread. I'll greatly appreciate any comments posted here on what should be added to the content list or changes to the layout before I open it up. I personally feel the layout is almost done so I can start working on the combo thread. That all said.... /sleep Hmm... mind that this is all critique. I feel that this category of information is much more suited to a wiki format. Though it goes against the real meaning of technical, I've always thought that these types of threads should give a clean and well-defined breakdown of not just tools that the character has, but rather how, when and where to use them. I, personally, would utilize a detailed explanation of the failings and strengths of those respective tools before anything else, then refer to the framedata for proration and frame advantage for those respective aspects.
FR05tB1t3 BOB Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Also Kurushii on the revolver action table it doesnt say if j.A,B, or C are jump cancellable.
St1ckBuG Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 If everyone can spend a minute of their time and check out the "Relius Clover Technical Guide and Discussion" thread. I'll greatly appreciate any comments posted here on what should be added to the content list or changes to the layout before I open it up. I personally feel the layout is almost done so I can start working on the combo thread. That all said.... /sleep I'll post up something from my Relius guide as an idea of what I think should be in the new technical thread. I think what you have now, like C0R has said, is more of a wiki format. (Not to mention we actually have a wiki page now!!!!)
Toasty Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 OK, so I may have found a pretty solid unblockable setup (I hope): First, just do your normal corner BnB, but with a different ender after 3C, like so- (starter) -> 236C -> 214A -> (dash) 5C(2) -> 6B -> sjB -> jC -> j236C -> j214A -> falling jC -> 2C -> 4D -> (back up slightly) 3C -> 214D After the 214D, a well-timed 3C should beat just about anything that isn't a reversal (mashing, blocking, jumping, tech rolls, not teching at all) and allow you to go into the same combo again, as well as being unblockable since 214D should be landing around this time. Note that you might have to delay the 214A in the second combo since Ignis might still be in the 214D animation, but it will still combo. The importance of backing up slightly is to ensure that 214D will still hit an opponent's crouching hitbox as well as preventing forward rolls from getting by you. You don't want to back up too far though, or the 3C that's part of the unblockable might whiff. The best part about your opponent choosing not to tech is that the 3C/214D will hit and count as a reset, still giving you an entire combo again. Also be sure to go into another full combo only if you had full or near-full Ignis meter before your initial combo (you can still do a simplified combo otherwise). Please let me know if you guys find any flaws to this setup. For now, I think that it will still be a pretty solid setup even if a flaw is discovered unless it's some very simple way out of it.
Rhiya Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 The best part about your opponent choosing not to tech is that the 3C/214D will hit and count as a reset, still giving you an entire combo again. Did you triple check this? I thought I had something like this for Tsubaki once, but it turned out it blue beated and was immediately techable. BB's system does NOT give you free oki if it can help it.
Toasty Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Did you triple check this? I thought I had something like this for Tsubaki once, but it turned out it blue beated and was immediately techable. BB's system does NOT give you free oki if it can help it. I did. By the time the 3C and 214D hit, the opponent must have been on the ground long enough for it to count as a new combo. EDIT- I tested it a few more times, and it worked every time.
Rhiya Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) EDIT: Weird. I'll need to check this shit. Edited January 13, 2012 by Dusk Thanatos
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