Errol Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Some of this is based on what I've read from jbbs. but. As I recall, 5b>3c does not work on crouching in CSEX, and 5bb>3c does. This makes me think 5b>5bb won't have a gap. the 5a>2c thing makes me think that 5a>5b might not have a gap. But I really can't say. It also is worth mentioning that special cancels work the same way - that is, on crouching, 5c>236c connects, but 5b>236c does not connect IIRC. There is something different about these, that causes one to work and not the other. 5b and 5c both have an attack level of 3. if it was as simple as, you can cancel into 236C on the first active frame, it wouldn't be that way. Do we have any reason to believe that charge cancels behave differently from gatling cancels or special cancels?
Kiba Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 (edited) The untechable time may be a factor. It would explain why 5C > 236C works for example, because 5C has more untechable time than 5B. Edited January 2, 2013 by Kiba
Errol Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 I wasn't sure, did untechable time take effect on grounded opponents? I kind of thought standing hitstun was just based on the attack level of the move. if untech is involved then that could be something. but I don't know? For one thing, does 5a>2c really connect in CS2 on an air hit? This is what I read on jbbs, but our frame data shows 5a as having 12 untech time. 2c has a 13 f startup..
pktazn Posted January 2, 2013 Author Posted January 2, 2013 Could be because of the way they're doing combos in CP as well? Iirc how long you have to connect to the next move depends on your starter as well among all the other factors.
FatalCounter Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Kiba is completely right. You are the Mod after all!! lol For example if you do 5BB > 5CC > 236A works for sure while 236B works on Ragna, Hakumen or Tager. But if you are close enough, you do 5BB > 5C > 2C > 236C works for sure. all these on standing opponents. BTW, on the last video showing some Kuresu footage, I saw him doing CH 5B (on arial opponent)> 5D cancel > 5B > air combo and it works while I tried this so many time and it never worked. even the mini dash 5C was hard to get after that. And my easiest option is to 5BB > sjBC > djCC > air ender. Maybe CH 5B untech time is good in CP.
Errol Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 that does work in CSEX too but it's tight. dunno if it is different in CP. 2c has a special hitstun value.
Errol Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 I also wonder if 5a>5b had a gap in CS2. 5a>5c has no gap in CSEX, and 5c is 8 frames. 5a>5b in CS2? 5b in cs2 was 9 frames. so is there a gap or not?
Kiba Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 I wasn't sure, did untechable time take effect on grounded opponents? I kind of thought standing hitstun was just based on the attack level of the move. if untech is involved then that could be something. but I don't know? Yea hitstun you're right.
Airk Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Some of this is based on what I've read from jbbs. but. As I recall, 5b>3c does not work on crouching in CSEX, and 5bb>3c does. This makes me think 5b>5bb won't have a gap. the 5a>2c thing makes me think that 5a>5b might not have a gap. But I really can't say. It also is worth mentioning that special cancels work the same way - that is, on crouching, 5c>236c connects, but 5b>236c does not connect IIRC. There is something different about these, that causes one to work and not the other. 5b and 5c both have an attack level of 3. if it was as simple as, you can cancel into 236C on the first active frame, it wouldn't be that way. Do we have any reason to believe that charge cancels behave differently from gatling cancels or special cancels? I guess it's POSSIBLE that 5B would only be cancellable by any means from frame 17 onward, but since they specifically mention the followup, I don't think that's the case, because if it were, 5B > Charge Cancel would be SUPER terrible. Like, -9 kind of terrible, so I think we'd have figured that out by now. In fact, I think, unless I'm screwing up my math, that 5B > 2B wouldn't combo if you could only cancel out of 5B on frame 17. You've got 17 frames of hitstun, starting on frame 11 (One frame after you hit) so by the time you are able to cancel your recovery, six frames later, you've only got 11 frames of hitstun left, and 2B is 13 frames. Is it possible that the problem is just that you're not close enough when you do 5B, but that since 5BB moves you forward, you're now close enough for 3C to combo? 3C has a lot of startup, and it is cutting it pretty close to combo it off a level 3 on a crouching target, so if it goes too far into its active frames before hitting, it'll fail to combo. All I can think of otherwise is maybe they are doing something weird with the hitstop values, because those are entirely absent from the Extend frame data, and cause a bunch of weird anomalies. Actually, come to that, I don't have a high degree of faith in the completeness/correctness of the Extend mook, considering that you have stuff like "22C is -5 on block, but according to the frame data has 29 frames of blockstun, which should result in it being -1." In the CS2 mook, the weirdness with 22C (this time it being +1 instead of +4) is explained by differences in hitstop between Tsubaki and the opponent. I'm not saying that's necessarily the source here, but it casts the completeness of the mook info into question.
Airk Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 I also wonder if 5a>5b had a gap in CS2. 5a>5c has no gap in CSEX, and 5c is 8 frames. 5a>5b in CS2? 5b in cs2 was 9 frames. so is there a gap or not? There shouldn't be - 5A is level 0, which gives 9 frames of blockstun. 5B is 9 frames of startup. I believe that should be gapless. And yeah, untechable time is only relevant in the air.
FatalCounter Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 (edited) that does work in CSEX too but it's tight. dunno if it is different in CP. 2c has a special hitstun value. Those SF 1 frame link? I hate them. 2C is just too good lol. Edited January 2, 2013 by FatalCounter
Errol Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 well, I guess I might test some things in cs2 later today. 5a>5b is gapless? 5a>2c air hit combos Also I can't exactly remember but weren't charge cancels improved a lot in EX? I can't remember any details though. Not that I particularly need to test that. For csex testing, maybe I will test charge cancels by seeing what moves can hit tsubaki out of charge cancel> 5a from various moves.
Airk Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Also I can't exactly remember but weren't charge cancels improved a lot in EX? I can't remember any details though. Not that I particularly need to test that. They increased the amount of charge you get from them by adding special "charge cancel" values that made you get like a "whole" 1/3rd of a charge or something, but as far as frame advantage, I don't think it has ever actually changed unless it changed with CP. For csex testing, maybe I will test charge cancels by seeing what moves can hit tsubaki out of charge cancel> 5a from various moves. Sounds legit to me. Start with Ragna 2B? That's 9 frames, so Tsubaki's 5B > Charge Cancel > 5A should beat it every time assuming 5B > CC is -2. Then you could do like, Tsubaki 5C (8 frames) or Jin 5B (7).
Errol Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 I figure the 5b cancel time of 17f only applies to 5bb. But in that case 5b>3c should still connect if 5bb does. afterall, 5b>2b is a tight gatling, whereas 5b.5bb is not. and 5bb is faster than 2b.
Errol Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 Ok. So I think everything works as it is expected to work. 5a>2c CS2: doesn't work. CSEX: doesn't work. CP: does work. Note that 2a>2c works in CS2 because 2a's untech time is 14. Note that in most cases a level 0 attack has 12 untech time, and a level 1 attack has 14 untech time. I wonder if 5a is +1 in CP? Or if they increased the attack level and decreased the recovery, or decreased the active frames. Also - could be universal change that increases the untech time of level 0 attacks. 5b>3c. This does work in CSEX, CS2, and CP. 5bb>3c Doesn't work in CP. Conclusion: 5bb attack level reduced to 2. If it were because of 3c being slower, 5b>3c wouldn't connect, unless 5b had a level of 4 now, which seems unlikely. Charge cancels: Same in CS2 as in CSEX, but if anything they're worse in CSEX than in CS2, though maybe relatively that's not the case. The amount of charge between games is equal cause the CSEX charge cancels were just retaining the charge rate of CS2 but only for charge cancels. Pokes after a charge cancel are all around better in CS2 (5b, 2a). Both were slowed so that makes it harder to use charge cancels. Also the 5c level decrease from 4 to 3 in CSEX. But lots of stuff is worse in CSEX so charge cancels see more use.
Errol Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 correction. 5a lvl 0->lvl 1 would make it +/- 0, as it is -2 right now.
Airk Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 Ok. So I think everything works as it is expected to work. 5a>2c CS2: doesn't work. CSEX: doesn't work. CP: does work. Note that 2a>2c works in CS2 because 2a's untech time is 14. Note that in most cases a level 0 attack has 12 untech time, and a level 1 attack has 14 untech time. I wonder if 5a is +1 in CP? Or if they increased the attack level and decreased the recovery, or decreased the active frames. Also - could be universal change that increases the untech time of level 0 attacks. 5b>3c. This does work in CSEX, CS2, and CP. 5bb>3c Doesn't work in CP. Conclusion: 5bb attack level reduced to 2. If it were because of 3c being slower, 5b>3c wouldn't connect, unless 5b had a level of 4 now, which seems unlikely. Charge cancels: Same in CS2 as in CSEX, but if anything they're worse in CSEX than in CS2, though maybe relatively that's not the case. The amount of charge between games is equal cause the CSEX charge cancels were just retaining the charge rate of CS2 but only for charge cancels. Pokes after a charge cancel are all around better in CS2 (5b, 2a). Both were slowed so that makes it harder to use charge cancels. Also the 5c level decrease from 4 to 3 in CSEX. But lots of stuff is worse in CSEX so charge cancels see more use. Thanks for taking the time to check all this! That all makes excellent sense.
Errol Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 i wonder if there's a gap between 5bb and 2b this time, lol.
Airk Posted January 3, 2013 Posted January 3, 2013 Very likely, unless they changed 2B. Which would be nice, considering how slow it is compared to most other characters' 2Bs. In fact, after some checking, it appears to be the slowest 2B in the game in addition to having pretty short range. =/
Surf Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 Im really happy 5A is possibly plus or neutral on block nown. And 2B isnt that bad, yea its slow and kind of bad range but its only -1. Which makes it a pretty effective stagger normal. Heres to hoping 2A is plus again.
Kiba Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 2B being slow makes it ineffective as a stagger normal imo. Look at Noel's 2B in comparison, huge difference there. 2B is good for alternate pressure, but if you wanna 'stagger', you're better off with 5A/2A.
Errol Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 2B being slow makes it ineffective as a stagger normal imo. Look at Noel's 2B in comparison, huge difference there. 2B is good for alternate pressure, but if you wanna 'stagger', you're better off with 5A/2A. Yeah, I wonder if he didn't just mean as a place to reset pressure off of (-1 isn't bad for that). 2b > 2b DOES work well for someone expecting you to 2b > 6a... if they aren't someone that mashes out of 6a's. (The timing of 2b>2b is remarkable close to 2b>6a thanks to how slow 6a is lollllllll). I haven't been using 2b to reset recently since Keebs punched me in the face every time I tried to reset off it..
Kiba Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I haven't been using 2b to reset recently since Keebs punched me in the face every time I tried to reset off it.. Pressure resets with 2B can be obvious (but that's not your fault that's Tsubaki in general unfortunately). Derp, yea i meant reset pressure Ah, no worries.
Surf Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Pressure resets with 2B can be obvious (but that's not your fault that's Tsubaki in general unfortunately). But thats where the frametraps and mind games come in
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