logichole Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 I'm not dead! Here are some notes I've come across as I've been learning how to operate with the new Tsubaki in CP. I don't know if this has already been written about, but I learned last night that if you just hold down 3[C] it automatically does the 3CC followup at the fastest possible timing. A nice little convenience I hadn't noticed before. (After ending in a 214B knockdown, try using this on wakeup against someone who is expecting a crossunder 2B...) Also - I was fooling around with options today after a blocked 6C in CP. The old jump-cancel-cancel specials work, but a lot of the new stuff does too. 632147C works for the command grab (which is great because the 6C leaves you in range for it), [4]6D > 236D leaves you at +6 advantage. A minimum height TK j.236A/D is gapless, hits crouchers, and gives you the projectile. RC it and go do some mixup :D For what it's worth, jump-cancel-cancel 282B/D seems a lot easier to accomplish in CP. Not sure why that is. It's still minus on block so there's not so much benefit, but there it is. Interestingly, you can cancel a blocked 6C into the blade super(!). The input is 6321469B. And by the time the opponent is out of the blockstun from 6C, you are fully invincible and the swords can no longer be dispelled. This is... really hard to punish. Maybe impossible. I'm still looking at applications, but this seems worth investigating further.
BatousaiJ Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 The 6C blocked cancel into blade super is actually quite nice and has a lot of practical value if it is unpunishable since they'd have to be mashing pretty hard to get away from 5C > 6C gatling and the blade super will start going at them while they're relatively close to you so you can do some silly mix up stuff. I'll have to test this myself later tonight, very nice find, logic =D. Also, on the scope of safe jumps, what are you guys using and off of what? I've recently started to doing things like this- 5A > 5BB > 5CC > 236A > 214B > j.B (safe jump). I tested it out vs Ragna and it seems to be a legit safe jump with j.B and not so much with j.C in this scenario. It's possible I didn't time the dummy to DP at frame one but it seems pretty good. The problem with 5A/2A starters is that they won't allow for decent DP whiff continuation so it's better off to just go with the ground series but if I want to either keep my opponent in my face either because A. I already have some charge to work with already and don't need the little bit of untechable charge(not even one in this case before you're in danger of getting punished). B. It's a match up where it behooves me to stay on them at all times. I also have a different one in the corner but I would imagine that's a bit more standard. Either way, what are you guys using for safe jump setups?
Errol Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 you can't punish blade super off pretty much anything except a jab. 5cc and 6bb are probably the best places in my opinion.. I don't see any benefit to using it after 6c. you can charge cancel 22b and safe jump. I largely don't use it because of delay tech. it's good though. 214b is good midscreen I think. I should try using it, because the nerf on 22b midscreen is painful against certain characters like you say.. for the time being, against those characters I'm doing the same thing as I do in EX a lot of the time - reset combo after 5ccd or 5cc>6b (whether it hits (crouching) or not) additionally you can do 5d continuation combos if you confirm 5a into 5bb.5c.236a instead of 5bb5cc236b.
BatousaiJ Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 Ya, I tested it out and it seems impossible to punish off of 5BB/5CC and I would assume 6BB. I just like the prospect of using it after 6C because you're practically in jab range (or so it seems) so it feels like more people will bite and try to punish taking the full damage + ground/air ender. Losing 5C jump cancel makes 6C jump cancel shenanigans more appealing in this iteration.
Errol Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 5c was never jump cancelable on block though actually. you're right but it's only going to work once probably. Actually if a tsubaki uses it right on top of me, I do sometimes try to punish it, with like a throw. but the thing is if you whiff you can easily block in time. granted you lose the ability to up back and block it in the air. if you have 1 charge you might be better off using mugen from 6c to force a 50/50. I never use this but it's there. tk mugen and hit with either j.B or 2b.
BatousaiJ Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 5C was jump cancelable on hit though. It isn't anymore. I don't like using Mugen outside of confirms usually unless I feel like styling since whatever charge you have and meter for a possibility of opening up your opponent seems a bit steep.
Errol Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 Yeah, you're right, I never use it and it's basically for that reason. the reason I use the blade super when I'm pressuring is usually because I just caught someone low on life, and I'm low on life too, and I'm a little scared. the use of 50 heat is to get on them safer, basically. 6c is usually safe.. though when I think about it, I'm not sure if I should even use it, compared with RC'ing a 236B... Actually I guess I use it for chip damage and/or barrier consumption too some. it's a neat tool.
BatousaiJ Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 Blade super is great for making people who are not used to the match up do something really stupid. Every time I activate it when they have low life, it's like I can hear them yell "I'M PANICKING!!" and then smash their face into their controller doing all sorts of random stuff and then dying. Also, the most obvious time to bait a dead angle is right as you're dashing towards them and they're in block stun from blade super. I've won a handful of matches baiting that very dead angle out and then finishing them off even though I've only have less than a hundred games played in CP so far. There are some other neat little applications with it but it'll be in the video.
Kiba Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) Interestingly, you can cancel a blocked 6C into the blade super(!). The input is 6321469B. And by the time the opponent is out of the blockstun from 6C, you are fully invincible and the swords can no longer be dispelled. This is... really hard to punish. Maybe impossible. I'm still looking at applications, but this seems worth investigating further. I think I mentioned this to Errol but I didn't mention it because I didn't think it had a use, but you found one! I think it's impossible to punish, and like Bat said it'll work against those who think they'll be able to press buttons, though this kinda seems like a one time use thing as people understand it. Gimmicky but has it's use. I do try to use 6C > CG, it's in the combo movie I made. It's real good. Also, on the scope of safe jumps, what are you guys using and off of what? I, kinda don't use jump setups a lot but if I do I do what Kazu@Ginga does. 236B/C > 214B > 22B(w) > j.C. When they start committing to block I do stuff like empty jump command grab. It can be seen here & here. (Taken from strategy guide). Ya, I tested it out and it seems impossible to punish off of 5BB/5CC and I would assume 6BB. Impossible to punish from 6BB (just confirming). Also I don't think anyone should be using Blocked 6C > Mugen. I'm not completely fond of going for things which aren't guaranteed then again I'm one of those players that just goes with real solid stuff. People who like the gimmicky stuff would probably appreciate this. Edited November 21, 2013 by Kiba
Airk Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 Aye, the frame data says that Blade Super should basically be unpunishable if cancelled into from just about anything that's not a jab; The invulnerability kicks in on frame 16, and if you're cancelling into it from a normal, you'll be looking at ~12 frames of blockstun even if they IB, and nothing that I know of hits in 4 frames.
BatousaiJ Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 I do try to use 6C > CG, it's in the combo movie I made. It's real good. CG is Crush Trigger?
toanenadiz Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 Aye, the frame data says that Blade Super should basically be unpunishable if cancelled into from just about anything that's not a jab; The invulnerability kicks in on frame 16, and if you're cancelling into it from a normal, you'll be looking at ~12 frames of blockstun even if they IB, and nothing that I know of hits in 4 frames. The only two moves faster than 5 frames right now is one of Kagura's supers which is 2 frames and Kokonoe's astral at 4 frames.
BatousaiJ Posted November 21, 2013 Posted November 21, 2013 command grab That makes a lot more sense.
Daedron Posted November 28, 2013 Posted November 28, 2013 What move are you talking about exactly? She has like 3 Sanctus (insert term here) moves. But considering all that, only 22x is remotely useful to beat out mashers, 22D fully charged is +8 and can also be used to frame trap or catch people in jump startup. (pretend to go for full charge, release earlier etc) Rest of your pressure should come from normals, throws and the command grab.
cj_iwakura Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 Sorry, I mean her new command grab, the 63214C one.
Daedron Posted November 30, 2013 Posted November 30, 2013 Yeah, it's really useful as it makes the opponent scared and more reluctant to jump out/mash buttons, for which you have plenty of options to deal with once they start doing that.
Errol Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 konans playing jin close thread we're done till cp2
Level5-Chan Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 (edited) konans playing jin close thread we're done till cp2 Aww man. And here I was having fun doing my all-time, surprising technology: Install Super + Overdrive. Still having some hate mails/words though... When's BBCP2 coming? Please, ASW? Edited December 3, 2013 by Level5-Chan
Airk Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 konans playing jin close thread we're done till cp2 I've come to the conclusion that ASW has not actually made any attempt to balance Tsubaki since the CS1>CS2 transition (which was more of a 'total character rebuild' than a 'balance attempt'.). For Extend, they basically just decided they didn't like that we were too good without having to use charges/install, so we got what amounted to a nerf, and for CP, it's clear that they didn't really feel anything was wrong with the character except maybe that she did too little damage. They didn't take the time to actually examine her and evaluate her tools as they stack up against other characters, so they just kindof rearranged stuff. Maybe that's acceptable when they were building a 'whole new game' and maybe it's not, but I'm thinking I may just not worry about importing after all. Actually though, I'm just lazy. And cheap.
Daedron Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 She's definitely a lot better than in Extend, not CS2 levels but honestly not that far off when taking the rest of the characters into account compared to the CS2 top tiers for example. (Kokonoe doesn't count ;p) I must be one of the few who thinks she's decent in CP :V
Airk Posted December 3, 2013 Posted December 3, 2013 She's definitely a lot better than in Extend, not CS2 levels but honestly not that far off when taking the rest of the characters into account compared to the CS2 top tiers for example. (Kokonoe doesn't count ;p) I must be one of the few who thinks she's decent in CP :V I think the thing is that while Tsubaki is a little better in CP, the "good" characters in CP are waaaay better than the 'good' characters in Extend, IMHO. (And that's not even counting Kokonoe.). Which means that even with an absolute power increase, the relative power level vs the top tier is not a good change. It doesn't help that all her stuff is so finnicky that we're trying to make spreadsheets to figure out what works on whom. :P
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