Toasty Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Remind me to never go on an action packed adventure with Toasty or Proto, they'll let me die for a sandwich. lol that was the very point we were arguing AGAINST. You have to do what's for the greater good (especially in extreme cases like the one stated), which sometimes means making tough decisions. Besides, Lumin told me there was a plot armor way around it anyway, but if there wasn't, then what I was previously stating still would be best.
Prototype909 Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 So two affirmations of the philosophy working justify it? From Aska's perspective Estelle being born is just as much of an evil as slavery or murder, and even that's on a grander scale since her living effectively means everyone else eventually dieing. Extraneous circumstances do NOT make him someohow not a hypocrite, extraneous circumstances changing your view on something is what MAKES you a hypocrite. You cannot decide to make a moral code that involves killing people without due process and then only make an exception for your friends. You ESPECIALLY cannot then try and fucking criticize people your taking your own philosophy and using it OBJECTIVELY. Yuri goes after Cumore and the other guy out of some sense of self-righteousness and belief that he is ENTITLED to take another person's life if the law doesn't punish them, and he also has a fucking axe to grind with these people so he's hardly unbiased in their executions. Aska has no attachment to anyone, and is trying to save the fucking WORLD, him wanting to kill Estelle is 100,000,000x more justifiable than anything Yuri does, period. It's so funny how in the 1st case "Being high up on the political ladder" spares his immediate punishment and this is something we as players is supposed to view as awful, but Estelle being friends with the party grants her a similar diplomatic immunity from death. What you're basically justifying is a philosophy where people aren't even given the chance to reform based on their previous actions, and can be killed without any sort of due process - unless they happen to be cute girls who are also party members because that makes it OK. Nevermind that Yuri NEVER has to own up to his actions. He NEVER has to repent for the lives he took, NEVER pauses to consider that he might've been wrong to take someone else's life, and NOBODY in the party or cast ever questions this. But hey, as long as they were fucking evil who cares about a few dead bodies, right?. I don't even oppose this sort of thinking just on the premise of the game, I oppose this as a person and will be willing to defend that stance to the bitter end. What you're basically justifying is the same system of thinking that oppressive regimes and extremist groups have used for centuries, but saying it's OK just because it's being presented in a way where only the "Bad Guys" get hurt by it. Fucking bullshit.
LunaKage Posted March 2, 2012 Author Posted March 2, 2012 lol that was the very point we were arguing AGAINST. You have to do what's for the greater good (especially in extreme cases like the one stated), which sometimes means making tough decisions. Besides, Lumin told me there was a plot armor way around it anyway, but if there wasn't, then what I was previously stating still would be best. No it's not, because your words could be twisted to make the sandwich be for the greater good. Like maybe the King wants a sandwich, and that sandwich is on an island in shark infested waters, and if we don't get the sandwich the king is gonna kill Toasty, so he sends us to swim for this sandwich, because he thinks that "Either way, Toasty will die, because I am brilliant", so in order to shove it to the King, you have me swim for it instead, so I die, and the King get's his sandwich, because I was able to send it back to you before I died from my wounds, so this way The King gets to "ho-hum" because he didn't get to kill Toasty.
LuminAbyss Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 The English to Toasty dictionary let me know that "Well developed story" translated into "plot armor" And that "world" translate into "sandwich"
LunaKage Posted March 2, 2012 Author Posted March 2, 2012 Stuff about something Yeah, I still don't understand the problem with it. Those two guys WERE Evil, Estelle was not, the world may not be all black and white like that, but that fact still remains.
LuminAbyss Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 So two affirmations of the philosophy working justify it? From Aska's perspective Estelle being born is just as much of an evil as slavery or murder, and even that's on a grander scale since her living effectively means everyone else eventually dieing. Extraneous circumstances do NOT make him someohow not a hypocrite, extraneous circumstances changing your view on something is what MAKES you a hypocrite. You cannot decide to make a moral code that involves killing people without due process and then only make an exception for your friends. You ESPECIALLY cannot then try and fucking criticize people your taking your own philosophy and using it OBJECTIVELY. Yuri goes after Cumore and the other guy out of some sense of self-righteousness and belief that he is ENTITLED to take another person's life if the law doesn't punish them, and he also has a fucking axe to grind with these people so he's hardly unbiased in their executions. Aska has no attachment to anyone, and is trying to save the fucking WORLD, him wanting to kill Estelle is 100,000,000x more justifiable than anything Yuri does, period. It's so funny how in the 1st case "Being high up on the political ladder" spares his immediate punishment and this is something we as players is supposed to view as awful, but Estelle being friends with the party grants her a similar diplomatic immunity from death. What you're basically justifying is a philosophy where people aren't even given the chance to reform based on their previous actions, and can be killed without any sort of due process - unless they happen to be cute girls who are also party members because that makes it OK. Nevermind that Yuri NEVER has to own up to his actions. He NEVER has to repent for the lives he took, NEVER pauses to consider that he might've been wrong to take someone else's life, and NOBODY in the party or cast ever questions this. But hey, as long as they were fucking evil who cares about a few dead bodies, right?. I don't even oppose this sort of thinking just on the premise of the game, I oppose this as a person and will be willing to defend that stance to the bitter end. What you're basically justifying is the same system of thinking that oppressive regimes and extremist groups have used for centuries, but saying it's OK just because it's being presented in a way where only the "Bad Guys" get hurt by it. Fucking bullshit.
LuminAbyss Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 "Good" and "evil" are still very subjective terms. True enough, I won't argue with that.
Chaoschao222 Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Sounds like Proto's right, regardless of the issues surrounding all this bullshit, Yuri's still being a hypocrite, I hope he burns for his sins
LunaKage Posted March 2, 2012 Author Posted March 2, 2012 He's still the best male main character in an RPG. Hypocrite or not, and besides, it's not like our views make perfect sense either.
Prototype909 Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Yeah, I still don't understand the problem with it. Those two guys WERE Evil, Estelle was not, the world may not be all black and white like that, but that fact still remains. Estelle wasn't evil to you as the player maybe, obviously not to Yuri either. To Aska? She was probably about as evil as most threats to the world should be perceived as. Why do you sympathize with Estelle? Because she's focused on, because she's made sympathetic, because you aren't shown any fault with her. The characters that are killed by Yuri weren't chosen by accident, they purposely chose characters who we aren't supposed to see any "good side" to so that you don't feel bad when they die. Cumore begs for his fucking life, and Yuri lets him die anyway. We'll never know if he would've repented because he wasn't given a chance to, because he was "evil". Your problem is that you're being completely blinded by the way the game has presented this entire aspect of the story to you. You're the same as Yuri in that you don't see how divorcing your actions from your own code of ethics only when it's convenient for you is morally corrupt. This sort of philosophy works just fine because we never see anything to suggest the people are killed are anything less than scumbags, but the fact that everyone in the fucking world seems to just be okay with someone going around killing people without any sort of real justification is bullshit. And no, being "evil" is not a fucking justification.
prodawg Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Yeah, I still don't understand the problem with it. Those two guys WERE Evil, Estelle was not, the world may not be all black and white like that, but that fact still remains. Just looking at this through an outside perspective, this doesn't really seem to be a sensible response to Proto's statement. The issue never seemed to be about good or evil, it's about the fact that the character had an established view that individuals don't have the right to choose who lives or dies without proper trial and due process. Which he then ignore's when it suits him. It would be like if half way through Trigun Vash just started straight up murdering all of his enemies and never questioned it. You could strongly argue that they deserved it, but it completely goes against what the story has established.
LuminAbyss Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 We shall begin sparing the lives of criminals then, Lord Prototype.
Amadeus46Art Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Guys I know the next Michigan thread title "Discussions about JRPG Morality"
LunaKage Posted March 2, 2012 Author Posted March 2, 2012 Estelle wasn't evil to you as the player maybe, obviously not to Yuri either. To Aska? She was probably about as evil as most threats to the world should be perceived as. Why do you sympathize with Estelle? Because she's focused on, because she's made sympathetic, because you aren't shown any fault with her. The characters that are killed by Yuri weren't chosen by accident, they purposely chose characters who we aren't supposed to see any "good side" to so that you don't feel bad when they die. Cumore begs for his fucking life, and Yuri lets him die anyway. We'll never know if he would've repented because he wasn't given a chance to, because he was "evil". Your problem is that you're being completely blinded by the way the game has presented this entire aspect of the story to you. You're the same as Yuri in that you don't see how divorcing your actions from your own code of ethics only when it's convenient for you is morally corrupt. This sort of philosophy works just fine because we never see anything to suggest the people are killed are anything less than scumbags, but the fact that everyone in the fucking world seems to just be okay with someone going around killing people without any sort of real justification is bullshit. And no, being "evil" is not a fucking justification. Sure we didn't get to see if they had a good side or not, but what if THEY DIDN'T HAVE A GOOD SIDE. They SEEMED like complete monsters, so who am I to argue? and besides, I don't give a fuck if they had sympathetic sides to them, the things I DID see them do were terrible things, and they didn't have any remorse for it, these guys were terrible people, and what? Maybe they had kids that loved them, sure, but that doesn't make what they did forgivable.
Toasty Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 We shall begin sparing the lives of criminals then, Lord Prototype. Unrelated, I'm actually for that irl. I don't feel like typing out a massive essay on it, but it would be far better imo to implement legitimate and worthwhile rehabilitation programs and groups as opposed to prisons.
LuminAbyss Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Sure we didn't get to see if they had a good side or not, but what if THEY DIDN'T HAVE A GOOD SIDE. They SEEMED like complete monsters, so who am I to argue? and besides, I don't give a fuck if they had sympathetic sides to them, the things I DID see them do were terrible things, and they didn't have any remorse for it, these guys were terrible people, and what? Maybe they had kids that loved them, sure, but that doesn't make what they did forgivable. Meanwhile, Estelle is running around, trying to heal people and save lives of those tormented by said complete monsters. Let's kill her.
LunaKage Posted March 2, 2012 Author Posted March 2, 2012 Just looking at this through an outside perspective, this doesn't really seem to be a sensible response to Proto's statement. The issue never seemed to be about good or evil, it's about the fact that the character had an established view that individuals don't have the right to choose who lives or dies without proper trial and due process. Which he then ignore's when it suits him. It would be like if half way through Trigun Vash just started straight up murdering all of his enemies and never questioned it. You could strongly argue that they deserved it, but it completely goes against what the story has established. You also can't argue the fact that if Vash decided to straight up murder people halfway through the story, it would be fucking cool as hell. And besides, I'm not trying to argue that Yuri isn't a hypocrite, I'm just trying to justify and sympathize with why he went against his views.
Linear04 Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Unrelated, I'm actually for that irl. I don't feel like typing out a massive essay on it, but it would be far better imo to implement legitimate and worthwhile rehabilitation programs and groups as opposed to prisons. rehabilitation systems are like proven to work better too, if you put someone in the slammer, chances are theyre gonna be more mad when they come out YOU ARE FUCKING STUPIDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Prototype909 Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 He's still the best male main character in an RPG. Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) Laharl (Disgaea) Vyse (Skies of Arcadia) I could list a ton more but it's probably easier to just explain why Yuri isn't the best male character. His development is completely static. He literally has no crisis, no massive change, no anything throughout the entire plot. The reason for this, is that all of that shit happens in plot we only see in the Tales of Vesperia movie. Yuri's goals, motivations, etc. don't change. For all intents in purposes he is already "developed" before the game starts, but this presents a problem because from the player's perspective it means you have a MC who doesn't fucking evolve as a person and just stubbornly clings to his conception of the way society and the world work throughout the entire game. This would've worked great if he was a side-character, as often they are the ones who exhibit this sort of character. However, as the main character in a JRPG it's usually expected that their world view or perception of SOMETHING is going to change, thus prompting the player to reconsider (or consider) something for the first time. Yuri doesn't change, which means the player doesn't change, which makes the exercise largely uninteresting if not a failure.
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