My Ky Trade Secrets thread

[shtkn]

the only stubby things i've noticed is the run speed and 5H having smaller range/bigger hurtbox.

 

still, ky's really good in xrd.

[VicViper]

is it just me or is Ky's 6P worse in Xrd?

[BladeOfJustice7]

Its frames are still amazing, just that it's effects on hit that's the problem. It lost its strike blow/blow away effect on CH. Making it sometimes hard to follow up AA'ing someone.

[ehuangsan]

I think they reverted it back to #R 6P, in which case it's a definite nerf. #R 6P was not very good and it lost to lots of things.

[xlolxlolx]

it's reload 6p, the hitbox on it is pretty sad

 

personally f.s feels a little shorter too, might be just the 16:9 resolution

[Notwhoyouthink]

whoa wait what. Ky has more indepth combos than in AC+R? Ky is way more simple in XRD combo wise than AC+R

[BladeOfJustice7]

I don't find, when I compare Xrd's corner DP loops in 236d, to ACR's corner DP loops. I find the ACR ones easier honestly, they just require the right timing for everything and then you're good. I'm not including FRC combos though like CH 2d>236s>FRC>stuff, btw. Just standard bnb and advanced combos like DP loops in the corner.

 

I don't know, may it's just me. I never really got to play with #R Ky extensively lol.

[Sytha]

We have way less combo routes now than +R. It's way more streamlined in Xrd. But yea. The damage is nutso in Xrd for Ky so less is more I guess.

[ehuangsan]

From my mashing of this game so far, it feels like that pretty much every touch can lead to retarded amounts of easy damage if you have meter.

[xlolxlolx]

not to mention vt loops now pretty much give you a free cse frc

[ehuangsan]

Ky vs. Millia

 

6-4 in favor of Millia and a pretty difficult fight for Ky. Millia is going rabbit hunting and Ky is the rabbit. Ky pretty much has to play active defense most of the time, and does not get many chances to attack.

Damage will mostly come off of inducing the other side to make mistakes.

 

Neutral

 

Basically you will try to goad Millia to attack you incorrectly and hit her hard when she does, and you have to do this while not getting knocked down and without getting thrown. This is why this matchup is fairly bad.

Her sweep and 2K are particularly dangerous, so you will have to memorize that distance and learn to punish it with a SE or FB greed sever. Most of the time you will be watching and reacting.

 

Your main pokes will be 6P, 2S, 5S, FB Greed Sever, 6HS, and 5K. 6P stops her far S, 5K stops her from running or rolling in, 5S seals out run into sweep, 6HS to seal out IAD attempts and so on. In particular, FB greed sever will stop her sweep with counterhit, which can lead to a lot of damage. Basically you want to be roughly 5HS distance most of the time if she's on the ground.

 

If she takes to the air, you have to pay attention to if she has the pin or not. If she has pin, you want to primarily make her use the pin while avoiding it, and then prevent her from getting the pin back. This will take a lot of her options away. Basically, you can jump backwards S if she gets to pin distance, or preemptively jump K/S to see if she is blocking in the air or not, chicken block the pin into airthrow, or if you have very sharp reflexes, wait for the pin and then HSVT in reaction. HSVT in reaction to pin will cause the pin to go through Ky, and if she opts to dive after the pin she'll get hit, whereas if she didn't she will probably be too far to attack you anyway.

 

If she doesn't have the pin, the 6P will beat her jump ins if timed correctly, and you can inflict massive damage if she tries to jump D or jump S you.

 

Another aspect is that Millia's anti-airs are merely okay, so it's hard for her to 6P your jump HS. If she tries to guess and you jump SE FRC, then you can do a lot of damage off the ensuing combo.

 

Offense

 

Should all be CSE based while watching for rolls and DAAs, otherwise standard Ky stuff. If she gets away, then oh well. Better to let it go back into neutral than push too hard and eat a knockdown.

 

Defense

 

FD if you are in block stun and just hold it down and look for an option to escape, or an opportune moment to DAA. She basically turns the game into a one player game and you will have to guess right so you don't want to be in this situation.

If you are not in block stun, then 2P abare is good to escape getting thrown, otherwise you will have to burn all resources to get out. Burst, FD jump away, even abare SVT or FB greed sever hoping for CH. You don't want her to have a turn, otherwise it becomes a one player game and you will most likely lose right there so always stay active on defense.

 

This is my least favorite matchup and it is my opinion that over a (very) long set, the Ky player will lose out no matter how skilled he is because he has too many concrete tactical things to watch for at all times, whereas Millia can play abstract offense almost all the time and generalize.

[Ukyo Tachibana]

This has been a supremely fun and humbling read.  I have not been on Dustloop for more than 7 years and I kind of regret not finding this thread sooner.  I will honestly admit I've learned a lot just reading through this thread, despite having played Ky for almost 10 years.

A lot of eh_sama's trade secrets I already actually do (without giving it much thought) and for him to articulate and elaborate a lot of them in such precise and educated manner kind of validates that I've made good decisions as to what Ky tactics are "legit" and which tactics I should adapt.  I especially loved his write-ups on "Rainbow of Death", "Katame" and "Doing Nothing".  "Rainbow of Death" is even more relevant now in Xrd because ending a combo into Split Seal in the corner puts you in the PERFECT range for Rainbow of Death.

Like you, I have always loved Faith, and I've always believed he was the best Ky ever.  Some people have claimed I play Ky wrong because I play a more heavy neutral style (like Faith), and I simply scoffed and said no.  Again, I'm glad you have articulated this well, and perhaps Faith Ky is the right Ky style all along.  

Since Xrd plays heavily like #R, I am glad to know you are playing it.  I hope Faith goes back to playing fighting games again with Xrd, too!

[ehuangsan]

Thanks for the comments. Good to see that this helps both old and new players alike.

[ehuangsan]

Primary and Secondary Games

 

It seems like nowadays people play many different fighting games and try to be tournament level in all of them. This doesn't really work all that well as you divide your attention across games and then you end up equally bad at all of the games, unless you are really just that talented and have that much free time to outplay everyone in everything.

 

Instead, try to focus on one game (I'm going to assume it's Xrd or +R) if your time is limited, and then find one or two games that can supplement your primary game and play those casually. If you play something that's too similar (BB, P4U), then you might not learn or try something that could have otherwise helped you in your primary game. Try finding a dissimilar game that shores up something that you don't do well in Xrd.

 

In my case, my secondary game is CvS2. It may surprise people to know that CvS2 actually runs a lot faster than GG, and you have to react or make decisions a lot more quickly in CvS2 than in GG. Since it runs so much faster, sometimes before a major match, I just play an hour of serious CvS2 beforehand. When I switch to GG afterwards, GG ends up feeling incredibly slow (i.e. Samurai Showdown speed) and I end up being able to see almost everything and react accordingly. Since my reactions are going downhill due to age and being retired, this helps immensely.

 

I seriously recommend trying to practice CvS2 or MvC2 to at least casual level to supplement Xrd as your primary game. You will be surprised at the effects.

 

EDIT: And if you want to get good at Melty Blood for some reason, I find that A3/CvS2 will be incredibly synergistic.

[Koga_Noid]

Just spent the past hour and a half reading this, this thing is a godsend for a newbie Gear player like myself, thanks a ton Eh-sama.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Eh-sama, do you think you could give your inputs on some of the new matchups in Xrd, or is it still too early for you to do that?

 

Also could you give a break down of the robo-ky matchup as well? Thank you for all that you've done so far

[ehuangsan]

Just spent the past hour and a half reading this, this thing is a godsend for a newbie Gear player like myself, thanks a ton Eh-sama.

 

No problem.

 

Eh-sama, do you think you could give your inputs on some of the new matchups in Xrd, or is it still too early for you to do that?

 

Also could you give a break down of the robo-ky matchup as well? Thank you for all that you've done so far

 

I'll do something about robo-ky. I also meant to do something with stun dipper, which I will get to although over half of it is no longer applicable for Xrd.

My inital impression of Xrd matchups are

 

3-7 Ram

4-6 Millia, Faust, Sol, Elphelt

4.5-5.5 Chipp, Sin, Venom, Zato

5-5 Ino, Bedman

5.5-4.5 May

6-4 Leo, Slayer, Potemkin, Axl

 

Though these will change as I play the game more and from the new patch.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Even though I don't play Ky, I found this an incredibly illuminating read. Really makes me want to take a step back and assess my game. I feel like I fall into the trap of overextending and not wanting to return to neutral very often these days.

 

Question, regarding the "negative" style, how would you characterize the opposite? I seem to understand the negative style as being more passive and attempting to do nothing/work off of the other player's mistakes. Is this accurate?

[ehuangsan]

Even though I don't play Ky, I found this an incredibly illuminating read. Really makes me want to take a step back and assess my game. I feel like I fall into the trap of overextending and not wanting to return to neutral very often these days.

 

Question, regarding the "negative" style, how would you characterize the opposite? I seem to understand the negative style as being more passive and attempting to do nothing/work off of the other player's mistakes. Is this accurate?

 

I wouldn't necessarily say passive; negative style players tend to be subtle but fairly active in neutral to set up positions where their decisions are easy and thereby fairly mistake free (so much so that they could choose to pass without consequence in neutral or offense at times), whereas their opponents' decisions are hard and mistake prone. Think of it as always trying to be where your opponent doesn't want you to be and then asking him "well, what are you going to do from here?", and rendering many of their decisions to be wrong.

 

It's not necessarily the best way to play fighting games either, though I think it does work fairly well for Ky. Rather, I would say it's one of many ways that can work and it really depends on your own personality and what you are comfortable with.

 

The polar opposite style also works too, which for the lack of a better term I'll call the chaotic style of play. That is someone who sets the screen on fire every possible game second with complex tactical battles and bizzare yomi-intensive hitting wars, regardless if on offense, defense or neutral. These types of players make many mistakes and get hit a lot, but because the game suddenly becomes very complex their opponents end up making even more mistakes and get hit even more so that when the smoke is cleared, the chaotic player ends up on top. The tell tale signs of chaotic players are when you hear lots of comments like "how does he get away with all that BS?" or "that looked like a really stupid move, why did it work?", because they don't mind making unsound or "wrong" decisions so long as the game stays complicated. Almost like a hustler or a trickster, these people make the Creating Chaos and Inducing Variance writeup in this thread a lifestyle and thrive in complexity. If done right, their opponents won't understand what's going on on the screen, but the chaotic player has at least some understanding of what is going on in the chaos.

 

The present king of this style is Kusoru by far. Past GG champions include Buppa Ky, and DC "chuck all coins and try to win within the first 30 game seconds" Johnny.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Interesting. This is new stuff for me, I'd like to keep talking, but don't want to throw the thread too far off topic either.

[BladeOfJustice7]

No problem.

 

 

I'll do something about robo-ky. I also meant to do something with stun dipper, which I will get to although over half of it is no longer applicable for Xrd.

My inital impression of Xrd matchups are

 

3-7 Ram

4-6 Millia, Faust, Sol, Elphelt

4.5-5.5 Chipp, Sin, Venom, Zato

5-5 Ino, Bedman

5.5-4.5 May

6-4 Leo, Slayer, Potemkin, Axl

 

Though these will change as I play the game more and from the new patch.

The highlighted matchups are the ones that I'm surprised you'd rank them there honestly.

 

I suppose I need to play against stronger Elphelts to learn about this matchup a lot better. As for Sol, I found Ky's strong damage and stronger screen control tools keep the matchup even against Sol, and I'm surprised that you would say Zato vs Ky is the same as Sin vs Ky. Though I haven't played a strong Zato yet, I thought the matchup would still be along the lines of 6-4/7-3 in Zato's favor.

 

The rest, from what I've seen, or played I agree with.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say passive; negative style players tend to be subtle but fairly active in neutral to set up positions where their decisions are easy and thereby fairly mistake free (so much so that they could choose to pass without consequence in neutral or offense at times), whereas their opponents' decisions are hard and mistake prone. Think of it as always trying to be where your opponent doesn't want you to be and then asking him "well, what are you going to do from here?", and rendering many of their decisions to be wrong.

 

It's not necessarily the best way to play fighting games either, though I think it does work fairly well for Ky. Rather, I would say it's one of many ways that can work and it really depends on your own personality and what you are comfortable with.

 

The polar opposite style also works too, which for the lack of a better term I'll call the chaotic style of play. That is someone who sets the screen on fire every possible game second with complex tactical battles and bizzare yomi-intensive hitting wars, regardless if on offense, defense or neutral. These types of players make many mistakes and get hit a lot, but because the game suddenly becomes very complex their opponents end up making even more mistakes and get hit even more so that when the smoke is cleared, the chaotic player ends up on top. The tell tale signs of chaotic players are when you hear lots of comments like "how does he get away with all that BS?" or "that looked like a really stupid move, why did it work?", because they don't mind making unsound or "wrong" decisions so long as the game stays complicated. Almost like a hustler or a trickster, these people make the Creating Chaos and Inducing Variance writeup in this thread a lifestyle and thrive in complexity. If done right, their opponents won't understand what's going on on the screen, but the chaotic player has at least some understanding of what is going on in the chaos.

 

The present king of this style is Kusoru by far. Past GG champions include Buppa Ky, and DC "chuck all coins and try to win within the first 30 game seconds" Johnny.

 

My sparring partner, who uses Sol, plays exactly like this. He also sits just outside your characters preferred range constantly as he lights up the screen. How do you handle such players eh-sama?

 

Interesting. This is new stuff for me, I'd like to keep talking, but don't want to throw the thread too far off topic either.

 

Keep talking this is actually quite interesting, my sparring partner in GG since HS, plays very chaotic honestly. But as he realized characters with very high damage output like Johnny, Sin, and Potemkin this play style doesn't work so well against them as they capitalize off mistakes better than most characters, provided the opponent is competent enough to optimally punish mistakes.

[ehuangsan]

Quick answers since it's probably better to discuss this in the Xrd thread:

 

Elphelt - although grenade is an extremely good projectile, that isn't what makes Elphelt truly win the matchup. Too many Elphelts are focused on trying to get a grenade out, which hands Ky lots of counterattacking chances. Instead, she should just bully Ky with her superior normals, as they are all simply better than Ky's (c. S, f. S, 2HS, 5HS, etc.) at Ky's effective range, get the knockdown, then do grenade into shotgun stance. Once she achieves that the round is essentially over if Ky has no tension. Her c.S/f. S and Sol's 5K are some of the most ridiculous pokes I've ever seen in a fighting game.

 

Sol - Sol's normals all became insanely good. 5K beats all of Ky's pokes at < f. S range, and 2D/fafnir beat all of Ky's normals outside of f. S range.Eating a fafnir is almost round losing, so Ky has to be very stingy with what normal he tosses out. Whiffing 2D is fatal against Sol.

 

Zato - this hasn't changed much, only Ky has more options now with the improved RTL, blitz shield and split ciels. Although Zato has the launch summon that opens right on top of you, he gets nothing off of it if you block so it's not round losing to block it. RTL is now an option to get out of the unblockable setup, blitz shield defends against staggered drills, split ciels make it more dangerous for Eddie to just sit back and begin a summon.

 

As for chaotic players, I think the best is to try to filter out what is nonsense and ignore it, and pick a spot to counter attack. It's usually somewhere where they have overextended. I'd have to see your friend play, but he sounds more reckless than chaotic then. A true chaotic player would do something insane like run up VV RC/2D RC, stagger into riot stomp to force tactical battles instead of dancing ouside of the opponent's effective range.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Quick answers since it's probably better to discuss this in the Xrd thread:

 

Elphelt - although grenade is an extremely good projectile, that isn't what makes Elphelt truly win the matchup. Too many Elphelts are focused on trying to get a grenade out, which hands Ky lots of counterattacking chances. Instead, she should just bully Ky with her superior normals, as they are all simply better than Ky's (c. S, f. S, 2HS, 5HS, etc.) at Ky's effective range, get the knockdown, then do grenade into shotgun stance. Once she achieves that the round is essentially over if Ky has no tension. Her c.S/f. S and Sol's 5K are some of the most ridiculous pokes I've ever seen in a fighting game.

 

Sol - Sol's normals all became insanely good. 5K beats all of Ky's pokes at < f. S range, and 2D/fafnir beat all of Ky's normals outside of f. S range.Eating a fafnir is almost round losing, so Ky has to be very stingy with what normal he tosses out. Whiffing 2D is fatal against Sol.

 

Zato - this hasn't changed much, only Ky has more options now with the improved RTL, blitz shield and split ciels. Although Zato has the launch summon that opens right on top of you, he gets nothing off of it if you block so it's not round losing to block it. RTL is now an option to get out of the unblockable setup, blitz shield defends against staggered drills, split ciels make it more dangerous for Eddie to just sit back and begin a summon.

 

As for chaotic players, I think the best is to try to filter out what is nonsense and ignore it, and pick a spot to counter attack. It's usually somewhere where they have overextended. I'd have to see your friend play, but he sounds more reckless than chaotic then. A true chaotic player would do something insane like run up VV RC/2D RC, stagger into riot stomp to force tactical battles instead of dancing ouside of the opponent's effective range.

 

Elphelt: Yes agreed, her normals, at their effective range, beats Ky's. The matchups still feels like vs I-no for the most part for me, Whoever gets knocked down and/or put into the corner loses the round, rather quickly. Except both Elphelt and Ky have very strong overdrive reversals that allow them to get out of the corner and turn the tides. I would also like to say that Elphelt's divorce super (632146D) can be beat with a j.d> dc. stun edge setup, or with a properly spaced 5d, her super clashes with it. Based off watching Roz play against Dei's Elphelt, it seems you have to bob and weave in and out of her range in order to avoid getting knocked down due to her normals, (when traded) yield more for her than Ky. Going in out of of midrange without getting in close is the most effective way to play against her. Once you known her down and/or get her into the corner, it's usually over.

 

As for Sol, I noticed his pokes seem to be better in Xrd. I have a harder time keeping him out, YRC gunflame and fafnir aside. What changed with Sol's normals into xrd that's different from AC/ACR?

[VicViper]

I actually end up playing against VR Raiden's Sol very very frequently, and I'd definitely describe him as one of those chaotic types.

 

I used to get bodied by him, but it's getting closer and closer as I'm getting better at catching him overextend/making decisions that end up being wrong.

 

Also still feel like the Sol matchup is still relatively even

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Yeah, Sol in chaotic style is kinda 50/50. I think it is beneficial to play him in that way sometimes, since he becomes very linear if you play him too "honest", but the risk can be really high since almost all of his moves are either telegraphed and/or unsafe in some way.