[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[GreasyGyro718]

It must have been. Now you can just gatling f.s into 6HS, and it still wouldn't combo unless you have a ch.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Quick question about charging:

1.If you CC and release D early as possible, will the recovery frames still be the same?

Cuz I've noticed that I can act faster if I release D asap.

CC assumes you release D button as early as possible. Holding the button will definitely increase your recovery.

2.That vid from long ago(dunno where it is now) in which the Order-sol player did 5S,f.S,CC,6HS and it connected like a normal combo, is that possible? Or was it changed before the final arcade release of AC?

f.S, CC, 6HS is not a combo. He probably did 5S-f.S-6HS since f.S-6HS is a regular gatling. CCing is a total waste there.

[WUT]

Lol. If you do an immediate ascending j.HS as soon as you leave the ground you can double jump/air dash before you hit the ground. Sup forced 50/50. Take that j.P whiffing on crouchers. EDIT: Not really practical for matches, but it's lawl.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Actually I could see that possibly being really good in a few circumstances. Just not something you could do all the time.

[Digital Watches]

Stop telling fairy tales, you're not gonna guess right all of the time as an Axl player and good OS's know how to capitalize on that.

Who said anything about guessing? A good Axl knows that HOS can't do anything fast enough to make him guess. Just go for shit on reaction.

[rexkim]

I tried that but it makes me burst instead =/ I'm probably doing it wrong. Oh and also, a friend of mine is convinced that Dragon install Sekkai is the best od in the game. Does it even have any "real" uses?

[reaVer]

4 fafnirs in a combo do more damage, though I've seen more delusional players...

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Guys, please don't post general questions in the primer or discuss them in there. That's why we have General Discussion and the discussion thread for the primer.

[excelence]

just some question to do with lv3 charge and full tension ... have any of u bait Tyrant Rave lv1 dash in and hit with Tyrant rave lv3 ? :/

[HolyBadSanta]

TRICK OF THE DAY: I figured out one thing in training Vs potemkin, i m playing on PS2 Jap version of the game so if anyone could test it on the US version, it will be nice to correct it : if potemkin do a slide head from far, you can use rockit at any level even without hitting him, YOU WON T FALL.

[GreasyGyro718]

wow, this works! I'd still do an iad hs though.

[WUT]

From the conversation in the Combo thread (as I was just going to make everything totally off-topic eventually): Lvl2 GB gives you more time and better positioning to mix-up compared to Lvl1, yet less options for combo if you manage to break their guard. Personally, that doesn't seem like a very good tradeoff. I'd rather keep the charge to combo with, or go for a more advantageous set-up (like Lvl2 BHB frametraps). Besides, an extra meaty Lvl1 GB gives you plenty of time to work with when it comes to strong Oki. I will concede that there is a use for Lvl2 GB, namely that you can attempt a GB cross-up and then mix-up safely after. But that still doesn't eliminate it from being his most useless special IMO, especially since most of his other specials aren't so specialized and have uses in other situations. Also, I tend to try for cross-up GB less and less anyhow; unless the person you're fighting doesn't have much experience with HOS they can usually guard it easy enough. Since the thought crossed my mind, what is everyone else's opinion(s) as to what HOS' most useless special actually is?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Lvl2 GB gives you more time and better positioning to mix-up compared to Lvl1, yet less options for combo if you manage to break their guard. Personally, that doesn't seem like a very good tradeoff. I'd rather keep the charge to combo with, or go for a more advantageous set-up (like Lvl2 BHB frametraps).

The way I see it, in most situations, the damage you are going to get off of lvl2 GB is similar. The best lvl2 GB combo not only does similar damage to some of the stronger lvl1 GB combos, but you can end up with lvl3 by the end of the combo. Granted, you don't get a knockdown, but you just did ~40% damage and you have lvl3. This is not bad by any means. If they block it, you have wonderful, wonderful options to continue pressuring them. You can even cross them up again!

Compare the best-situation lvl1 GB combo, which does approximately 50% damage (good!) and assuming you had the same charge, you can get a knockdown and then AC to lvl2 again and get some decent oki (not wonderful, unless you are super-l33t and got a knockdown lvl2 SV), or you can CK again and get lvl3 at the end of the combo (they can tech). If they block, you have to spend more meter to really get them scared of your mixup (ie you had lvl2 and did CK lvl1 GB, now you AC FRC and you have lvl3 BRP ready to go, or you have Fafnir if you still have meter). You can threaten with 2S CH but this is only if they are crazy/stupid enough to swing at you after blocking GB on wakeup; the smart bet is to try and escape, so you have to focus your efforts around catching them trying to get away. So yeah, your options on hit are better, but on block you lose some momentum. I wouldn't say this makes lvl1 GB the obvious better choice, it's just a stylistic preference. A lot of it will depend upon your opponent too.

Besides, an extra meaty Lvl1 GB gives you plenty of time to work with when it comes to strong Oki.

True, but by doing lvl1GB extra meaty, you are telegraphing the hell out of your intentions and you eliminate the mixup/crossup aspect of GB by making it extremely easy to block/deal with. With lvl2, you still get strong oki but you also have a chance of still hitting them with the move itself.

I will concede that there is a use for Lvl2 GB, namely that you can attempt a GB cross-up and then mix-up safely after. But that still doesn't eliminate it from being his most useless special IMO, especially since most of his other specials aren't so specialized and have uses in other situations.

Really? How is lvl2 GB more useless than lvl2 RI, which traditionally is only good in combos and serves no other real use? How is it more specialized than lvl2 BHB, which is only good in combos and in close for pressure? I would say lvl2 GB is more versatile than either of these moves; you can combine defense and offense in one single shot due to its evasive properties, it's great on wakeup and you still get good damage on hit.

Also, I tend to try for cross-up GB less and less anyhow; unless the person you're fighting doesn't have much experience with HOS they can usually guard it easy enough.

This is part of why lvl2 GB is so good, doesn't matter if they block it or not, you still hold control of the match. Out of the main mixup options off of 2D -> lvl1 GB crossup scenario, lvl2 GB has excellent risk/reward balance.

Since the thought crossed my mind, what is everyone else's opinion(s) as to what HOS' most useless special actually is?

lol Charge Burst. Easily.

[Kamui Moon]

I don't really think I can add anything more to what TB has said. I like my lv2 GBs and this really is just coming down to being too situational/player preference.

Since the thought crossed my mind, what is everyone else's opinion(s) as to what HOS' most useless special actually is?

Aside from the aforementioned and totally obvious CB, I really tend to never use lv1/2 BHB anymore. I haven't used lv1 since Slash and I don't see myself going back to ever using it. Charging works just as well as standing there all day AC'ing a whiffed BHB. And the mixup options off of a lv3 compared to a lv2 just make lv2 a complete waste of charge in my eyes. It's still okay for oki because of it's frame advantage, but meh. I feel pretty much the same way about it that Ryan-Bill feels about lv2 GBs. :p

[WUT]

True, but by doing lvl1GB extra meaty, you are telegraphing the hell out of your intentions and you eliminate the mixup/crossup aspect of GB by making it extremely easy to block/deal with.

Yeah, you remove the mix-up from Lvl1 GB, but I find that it's worthwhile. As I stated before, I don't go for GB cross-up much anymore, opting instead to reliably pin them down on Oki and only really using GB cross-up when I'm fighting new opponents/people with limited HOS experience. Of course, as you mentioned, your playstyle changes depending on exactly whom you're fighting. Against those with HOS experience, most know the safest option is to simply 1F jump/backdash out of any gap you give them, seeing as HOS' anti-escape options are all weak without Charge/CH. They know that playing the chasing game is a bitch for HOS. In this case, frametraps and tick throws tend to be much more worthwhile, so closing the gap and maintaining close proximity is essential. Against those that don't know how to fight HOS, Lvl1 GB is a killer anyhow. Lawl.

Really? How is lvl2 GB more useless than lvl2 RI, which traditionally is only good in combos and serves no other real use? How is it more specialized than lvl2 BHB, which is only good in combos and in close for pressure? I would say lvl2 GB is more versatile than either of these moves; you can combine defense and offense in one single shot due to its evasive properties, it's great on wakeup and you still get good damage on hit.

Lvl2 RI leaves you at what, -1 on guard? Not exactly what I'd consider awesome for pressure, but it's still a frame trap. You can also punish backdashes easy as fuck with it for ~150+, which is what I use it for most of the time anyhow, aside from combo'ing of course. As for Lvl2 BHB, it's his safest non-Lvl3 special, which is awesome when it comes to pressuring; you can honestly just throw it out there and get some offense rolling. Can you say the same thing for Lvl2 GB, which is only safe when used during Oki? I realize that you can do a running Lvl2 GB and start offense/combo, same as its Lvl1 counterpart, but running GBs are unsafe as hell. Perhaps "specialized" was the wrong word for this. What I meant was that Lvl2 GB isn't as versatile or reliable/safe in multiple situations, whereas HOS' other specials are.

Charge Burst...

Really? I like the mindgame it adds when you're Charging from long range. People want to make you CB so they can punish, but they hesistate, FD brake, or throw safe pokes that don't amount to much if they hit (Bridget's 5S(f) and 2S are great examples of this, same with Venom 5S(f)).

I have been tinkering with Lvl2 GB oki though, as all this discussion got me thinking. If you do 2D xx Lvl1 GB, Lvl2 GB cross-up [D], Lvl1 GB ]D[, you have an amusing cross-up into cross-up that will feed back into Lvl2 with AC, and it's easy as hell to hit confirm should either cross-up hit. I also like the fact that you're doing a CK Lvl1 GB; buffering D during a special before it makes you AC the move is sweet mechanically.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I don't consider anything that gives a free escape a frame trap, so no, -1 is not a frame trap. Especially if they IB it and it goes from -1 to -5. I suppose lvl2 BHB is technically his safest move, but that doesn't mean that just throwing it out there is a spectacular idea. And yes, it's great for pressure, but again, this is one situation which I already mentioned. lvl2 GB is safe in plenty of non-oki situations, none of which have to involve running up to someone and doing it out of the blue in a neutral situation. I didn't mean to imply that lvl2 BHB was bad by any means, just using it as an example. And yeah, buffering D before moves is awesome for CK purposes. I'll have to try out that particular setup sometime.

[WUT]

If you include IB then most of the frame traps in the game are null and void. While Lvl2 RI is easier to IB then say, HOS 5K, the point still applies. And, just to clarify, what other situations would you use Lvl2 GB as opposed to Lvl1 GB? Aside from Oki, where else can you use a Lvl2 GB where it will actually outperform a Lvl1 GB in some manner? This is where versatility and reliability come into play. Lvl2 RI and Lvl2 BHB have other uses, AND they have a function that isn't outperformed by another special in the same situation.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

We've already discussed the pluses and minuses of using lvl2 over lvl1 when it comes to GB: slightly more damage for lvl1, but better options on block for lvl2 along with enhanced evasion/speed. You use it in all of the same situations you would use lvl1, with the possible exception of anti-air since they may get launched too high for a good followup in that situation.

[GreasyGyro718]

I think the things you guys are arguing here is a bit silly... I won't say one is better then another because from the way I see it, they weren't meant to be like that. they were meant to be different. O.Sol DOES have charge keep, ya know? I gotta say this about lvl 2-3 GB though...wake up GB against CSE from a ky = hawtness. I'd use GB lvl 1 for anti-air ALWAYS over lvl 2. it's just easier to combo off of. and if you get a CH with it, that's an untechable right their. for cross-ups it's really the same thing. GB lvl 2 is also ALOT safer then lvl1 because, I think I could be wrong, it recovers faster and goes farther, AND moves faster. so yeah, can't really argue over it because you can still use both, MMKAY?!!? TB : would you really use up a level just for that mincy bit of damage from a lvl2 GB? I know I wouldn't. oh and yeah lvl2 GB can really mix up someone if they block it, gotta give that props.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I fully advocate the use of both versions as they each have their strong points. I simply refuse to label lvl2GB as useless when it's so good.

TB : would you really use up a level just for that mincy bit of damage from a lvl2 GB? I know I wouldn't. oh and yeah lvl2 GB can really mix up someone if they block it, gotta give that props.

If by mincy bit of damage you mean 170+ points of damage, sure. You can do huge damage off of lvl2 GB if you know the proper combo and you can still maintain a high level of charge while doing it.

[GreasyGyro718]

when I meant mincy damage, I meant as an improvement over GB lvl1 in situations where you would choose lvl2 over 1. with GB lvl1 you can get like 155+ at LEAST iirc.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Damage is damage, what's important is getting the hit and maintaining momentum. HOS is a rushdown character. Yeah, you can get more damage from lvl1 GB. Why does this suddenly make lvl2 GB bad? Since when is 40% damage low? It's damage. Yes, you should max damage in every situation when you can, but that refers to when you actually get the hit. You don't automatically choose one move over another solely because of damage potential. What's important is actually being able to continue your strategy in the way that uses the least amount of effort and leaves the fewest gaps for your opponent to get out, especially if you have the lead.

[reaVer]

As for Lvl2 BHB, it's his safest non-Lvl3 special, which is awesome when it comes to pressuring; you can honestly just throw it out there and get your ass sweeped, combo'ed, name it.

Fixed!!!

And btw, l2GB or any GB done in the open is throwable, that's why the only times you should be doing it is when you know your opponent will not be able to throw you on reaction(for example, when he's BHBing).

[Teyah]

Okay, so Hellmonkey says

His charge cancel is great, his damage is not still poor, his mixup is not sub-par, and he has speed and priority to make up for his range. Despite his improvements, everyone else was improved as well so it didn't make him as high tier as everyone originally expected.

From what I've seen, Order-Sol has lower than average damage output on any connected hit (when compared to the rest of the cast), and less than average damage on a successful mixup -> B&B. His mixup also requires 50% tension to use most effectively, while many characters have more reliable/damaging forms of mixup for less (or for free). I also rarely see his 'great CCs' used in matches anymore...

can ye olde Hoss forum explain/correct some of these things for me so the above quoted post makes sense? Many thanks!

[excelence]

he's doing fine with the damage output and doing much better than Bridget afaik, the idea is, just how to launch his opponent into his j.hs,j.d combos, and he still have that charge metter and charge keep which upon connect can deal up to 200 damage w/o tension. and not all of his mix up need 50% tension btw (BRP,GB)