[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[Teyah]

Yeah, I was comparing to the average cast member in AC, not like.. one of the worst (Bridget). It is good to know that he isn't at the bottom though! And I did mention his 'most effective' mixups happen when he has 50%, not all mixups. The only really threatening thing I can think of otherwise, is corner throw at level 2/3, which leads to good damage and another knockdown in a bad situation.

[excelence]

and afaik if Sol didn't have any tension, he fairly do the same level of damage as OS does on any random poke err... sry with my lack of knowledge... but what's this "most effective mix up" setup u called? :| ... for my style playing OS is rarely do any RC or Tension for mix up and spent most of it on AC frc to trade with level and still on the momentum for pressure/just being safe, the mix up i use most of the time it only cost at most 1/4 tension and most of the time it will connect into corner pressure (Brp->throw, gb->j.d)

[Teyah]

Depending on the poke, Sol gets a lot of damage (sometimes a full B&B!). And if it is or goes to a 2D, he can easily BR RC into B&B for high damage as well. On random stuff like j.H, he at least gets a knockdown, which Order-Sol does not, unless he's carrying charge (not too common). For mixups, I'm referring to the options of being able to go high (2H RC), low, throw, and occasional crossup instead of just low/throw and sometimes crossup. Or is 2H RC not used much anymore? Either way, low mixup leads to like 50 dmg (lol) + knockdown, crossup does ok damage (150ish?) but no knockdown unless carrying charge, and throw is only good in the corner. Just seems rather unimpressive to me, especially considering the risk and ease of escaping most of this via something like FD jump.

[excelence]

and like i said on random poke without tension (;^_^)a anyway 2h, is one of his option, but that shouldn't be spammed for that moves comes slow as hell, and u're right on low mix up, but from there he can start another mix up, and for cross up i think, i deal at least 170~190 damage ocasionally on most of the cast and like u said no knock down on this one, and throw i've said also good to sent someone to corner, and regarding opponent FD jump and OS low jump property, opponent vertical jump is one of the most favorable option for OS practicing his air throw games. anyway what he lacks is knock down on big combos

[Teyah]

Right.. but it is not difficult for Sol to obtain 50% tension before or during a random connected hit and then go into a high damage combo. Whereas OS has no such option with an additional 50%, really. Anyhow, my main point of discussion was this quote here, which I'd like to get back to:

His charge cancel is great, his damage is not still poor, his mixup is not sub-par, and he has speed and priority to make up for his range. Despite his improvements, everyone else was improved as well so it didn't make him as high tier as everyone originally expected.

I just want to see some examples of this average to above average damage of Order-Sol's on both basic random hits and B&Bs, examples of mixups that outdo at least half the cast's in terms of practicality, damage, and further setups, and also some very threatening uses of his 'great CC'. And I am speaking in realistic terms here, so please don't respond with only stuff like Level 3 combos.

[reaVer]

Right.. but it is not difficult for Sol to obtain 50% tension before or during a random connected hit and then go into a high damage combo. Whereas OS has no such option with an additional 50%, really. Anyhow, my main point of discussion was this quote here, which I'd like to get back to:

I just want to see some examples of this average to above average damage of Order-Sol's on both basic random hits and B&Bs, examples of mixups that outdo at least half the cast's in terms of practicality, damage, and further setups, and also some very threatening uses of his 'great CC'. And I am speaking in realistic terms here, so please don't respond with only stuff like Level 3 combos.

Average damage from l1GB in slash: 130ish, in AC: 180ish

Average l2Ri combo without tension in slash: 150ish, in AC: 200ish

Average CH j.H combo in /: 100, in AC: 150

Average throw combo in /: 120ish, in AC: 140 is reachable.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I just want to see some examples of this average to above average damage of Order-Sol's on both basic random hits and B&Bs, examples of mixups that outdo at least half the cast's in terms of practicality, damage, and further setups, and also some very threatening uses of his 'great CC'. And I am speaking in realistic terms here, so please don't respond with only stuff like Level 3 combos.

Level 3 is actually pretty realistic in AC with the combination of faster Charging and the ability to Charge Keep, you can do ridiculous lockdowns like string into level 2 Blockhead Buster, AC FRC and dash into another string that ends with a CK level 1 Blockhead, AC FRC and now you have level 3 and the option of an instant high/low using Bandit Revolver with sweep (or Fafnir if you have meter), or you can run up and continue to pressure.

Main thing is we have to define what "average" damage is in AC. I think people mistake characters like Slayer and Jam to be the "average" when they really are the exception to the rule. Shit, Testament and Baiken are tops and yet their damage really doesn't compare to those two characters. So what's "average" damage for you? 50%? 60%? If you say 70% or higher I know that your standards are a little off.

Like any other character, HOS's damage options in any situation will depend on his resources and some other factors like distance and whether or not he got a CH. In general though, I would say with level 2 and 25% meter, HOS can easily do 50% plus damage into a knockdown off of a clean opening. I would say that on both random hits and his B&B mixups, he does better damage than over half the cast. You also have to factor in guard gauge since he is a pressure character and a good HOS can make you block for a while before finally eating his mixup.

I would say CC is not super-threatening but it is pretty crucial to his game. You can CC random normals and make them have frame advantage depending upon how your opponent is guarding you (for example, if they like to FD to push you out, you can CC your Slashes and get frame advantage where you wouldn't normally). CCed 2D at max range on CH gives a free combo for decent damage. 2D is also +3 on block if you CC it, which is pretty decent. 5HS is +5 on block when CCed and you can use it after some normals up close for a nasty frame trap. If 5HS CHs on a grounded opponent, they can kiss over half their life goodbye. Same if you catch them airborne as anti-air or in a tech trap.

[Teyah]

Thanks for the reply TB.

Main thing is we have to define what "average" damage is in AC. I think people mistake characters like Slayer and Jam to be the "average" when they really are the exception to the rule. Shit, Testament and Baiken are tops and yet their damage really doesn't compare to those two characters. So what's "average" damage for you? 50%? 60%? If you say 70% or higher I know that your standards are a little off.

Like any other character, HOS's damage options in any situation will depend on his resources and some other factors like distance and whether or not he got a CH. In general though, I would say with level 2 and 25% meter, HOS can easily do 50% plus damage into a knockdown off of a clean opening. I would say that on both random hits and his B&B mixups, he does better damage than over half the cast. You also have to factor in guard gauge since he is a pressure character and a good HOS can make you block for a while before finally eating his mixup.

I would consider average damage from a full B&B in AC to be ~50%: this is 210 damage against Sol. From what I've seen in pretty much every OS match video I've watched, he isn't able to get 50% damage without serious guard gauge jacking (certainly not exclusive to Order-Sol) or landing a CH Fafnir (not the 'average' combo). Judging from videos, in actual matches it usually takes him ~4 successful mixups or punishes into combos to deal a full bar of damage.

Here are some practical combos from mixups I've noticed from OS vids and tested:

Gunblaze, r.5Sc, sj.S-H-D, BR: 148 dmg

FB Fafnir, r.2S-5H, IAD j.K, SV: 173 dmg

Corner throw, rj.H-D, dj.H-D, land 5Sc, sj.S-H-D BR LV2: 146 dmg + kd

Gunblaze LV2, 5Sc sjc.S-H-D: 144 dmg

And some CH situations:

j.H CH, r.2S-5H, IAD j.P-H, SV: 152 dmg

2S CH 6H RC, r.5K-5Sc-2S-2D: 153 dmg + kd

CH 5H CC, rj.H-D, dj.H-D, BR LV2: 181 dmg + kd

One of the few times I was able to see OS break 210 damage in a practical setup was via FB Fafnir CH, so I tested a couple of those out as well:

FB Fafnir CH, r.5S-5H, j.S dj.S, SV LV2: 217 dmg

FB Fafnir CH, r.5S-5H, sj.S-H-D, BR LV2: 219 dmg + kd

So yeah, it really looks like the magic range for OS combos is "140 - 160 damage", with a bit more added to that if using Level 2s or FB Fafnir. From what I've seen and tested, I don't see Order-Sol being capable of dealing 210+ damage from the average setup into B&B, even with a level 2. It looks to me like most of his main combos deal ~35% with good positioning (slightly less otherwise), with FB Fafnir + charge + CH being the exception that can actually break 50%. Average damage from full B&Bs I would place around 40%, but I feel even that's being a bit generous.

I would say CC is not super-threatening but it is pretty crucial to his game. You can CC random normals and make them have frame advantage depending upon how your opponent is guarding you (for example, if they like to FD to push you out, you can CC your Slashes and get frame advantage where you wouldn't normally). CCed 2D at max range on CH gives a free combo for decent damage. 2D is also +3 on block if you CC it, which is pretty decent. 5HS is +5 on block when CCed and you can use it after some normals up close for a nasty frame trap. If 5HS CHs on a grounded opponent, they can kiss over half their life goodbye. Same if you catch them airborne as anti-air or in a tech trap.

CCing has its uses in combos for sure, but as far as an actual pressure tool (as it was initially believed to be) it's not as much of threat as was thought early on in the game's life. Frame advantage is good, but when you're blowing most of it on dashing back in because your reach is so short, there are definitely limitations there.

[excelence]

just how many character can get 50%+ damage without serious guard gauge jacking?

[Teyah]

Can all definitely do over 50% in practical B&Bs: Eddie A.B.A Slayer Jam Axl Johnny Testament Sol May Potemkin

[excelence]

i'm not really certain if Sol was on top list of the chart I-No doing better on it IMO and A.B.A need a ch and 2 frc for her 200++ damage on Moroha mode, Baiken're better damage dealer with less requirement than her IMO, and that's only 11 character OS should do pretty decent shouldn't he(un-practical from random pokes air dash infinites against tall & standing opponent)? ... whatever i still able to force people eat my lv3 BRP/Tyrant Rave for 200+ damage & by God sakes Teyah what's with this pointless discussion? i am 120% certain every OS user out there agree if /\C version is "MUCH!!!" better than Slash version and we're pretty happy with it =/

[Teyah]

i'm not really certain if Sol was on top list of the chart I-No doing better on it IMO and A.B.A need a ch and 2 frc for her 200++ damage on Moroha mode, Baiken're better damage dealer with less requirement than her IMO, and that's only 11 character OS should do pretty decent shouldn't he(un-practical from random pokes air dash infinites against tall & standing opponent)? ... whatever i still able to force people eat my lv3 BRP/Tyrant Rave for 200+ damage & by God sakes Teyah what's with this pointless discussion? i am 120% certain every OS user out there agree if /\C version is "MUCH!!!" better than Slash version and we're pretty happy with it =/

I really don't want to get off-topic here, but I can explain why I'm here if you don't know.

In this thread, Hellmonkey basically made a post saying "no you're wrong" with a whole bunch of unqualified statements (I've reposted this quote twice already). Then he closed the thread before I had a chance to respond, leaving me with the message to take it to the OS forums for further discussion; so now I'm here trying to separate the bad from the ugly...

If the damage issue has been settled, can we move on to mixups? I'm really itching to know how Order-Sol's mixups (or lack of) make him above average in this category too.

For mixups, Order-Sol has:

- 2K that leads to 50 dmg + knockdown

- 2H overhead that requires 50% tension (unless you somehow CH with it) and leads to 97 dmg + knockdown

- A short-ranged dust that has big lag at the start, making it easy to see and not too useful

- Late crossup that is usually limited to okizeme situations, does ~35% dmg but no kd if it works

- Throw that does good damage in corner only

- Level 3 overhead that leads to BIG DMG (if you can get level 3 consistently)

- A lot of moves that can hurt you if they CH (but this isn't a mixup really)

If I am missing something, it'd be appreciated it someone could add it. Also, some explanations as to why these mixups are so strong would be great, as I certainly don't see anything overly threatening about any of these. Thanks!

[excelence]

for mix up OS can loop every of his mix up option after GB meaty which isn't possible on Slash, and if anything connect it'll either lead to decent damage or another gb meaty... not good enough? and btw get to lv 3 consistentlly isn't really a big problem now like Titanium Beast say, i'll at least once in every round will reach lv 3 and if the tension was there lv1 Brp Tick Throw setup & Fafnir was gold, it's been a year since i played /\C and i have 2~4 regular oponent that i play at least once a week and they still fall into that stupid setup =/

[LM_Akira]

Here are some practical combos from mixups I've noticed from OS vids and tested:

Gunblaze, r.5Sc, sj.S-H-D, BR: 148 dmg

FB Fafnir, r.2S-5H, IAD j.K, SV: 173 dmg

Corner throw, rj.H-D, dj.H-D, land 5Sc, sj.S-H-D BR LV2: 146 dmg + kd

Gunblaze LV2, 5Sc sjc.S-H-D: 144 dmg

And some CH situations:

j.H CH, r.2S-5H, IAD j.P-H, SV: 152 dmg

2S CH 6H RC, r.5K-5Sc-2S-2D: 153 dmg + kd

CH 5H CC, rj.H-D, dj.H-D, BR LV2: 181 dmg + kd

One of the few times I was able to see OS break 210 damage in a practical setup was via FB Fafnir CH, so I tested a couple of those out as well:

FB Fafnir CH, r.5S-5H, j.S dj.S, SV LV2: 217 dmg

FB Fafnir CH, r.5S-5H, sj.S-H-D, BR LV2: 219 dmg + kd

Just some corrections to point out...

- Lv1 GB gives dash 5S© HJC hj.S, j.HS, j.D, Lv1 SV

on everyone and probably does more like 160 or so on average. If you HJI you're looking at more, 175 or so. You can in fact go for dust loop vs everyone from Lv1 GB as well, if you take them to the corner you're looking at a solid 180-190ish with corner re-jugges ending with either knockdown at Lv2 or tech traps at Lv1.

- Fafnir (dash) 2S, 5HS hj.IAD j.P, j.HS, Lv1 SV

works on everyone and does around 180 or so on average.

Lv2 BRP does NOT give knockdown after high jump combos, it lost lots of un-techable time going from Slash to AC. You will only get knockdown from Lv2 BRP either on the ground or very close to it.

- JI'd Lv2 GB combos also do more damage than what you listed.

Off 2S (CH) 6HS RC you can do dash 5S©, 2S, 5HS into either IAD stuff vs tall chars or a special vs shorter ones, does more damage than the combo you listed (and can give knockdown after the IAD hits). Or you can combos 2S (CH) into Lv2/3 specials. Or do Lv3 specials after the 5HS listed above and break 200.

CH Fafnir gives dash 5S© 5HS into a JI'd high jump combo vs anyone for way over 200 pts (maybe not quite vs Potemkin, Robo-Ky, A.B.A. etc...) or you can go into dust loop and take them into the corner from midscreen for a re-juggle. CH Fafnir leads to huge damage in general and even better damage in the corner.

From my viewpoint tho, for Order-Sol to reach his maximum damage potential in a match, it strongly hinges on Tension, Lv, CHs and proximity to the corner. His average damage per combo realistically is lower than 200pts in my mind, I would put it at more 150-180 but then again I'm a scrub lol.

[reaVer]

You're watching bad OS players then, even KZO takes over 60% if he gets the chance:O Some proper combos for you: l1GB 5H sj.S-H-D,(dj.P-H,)SV does 180ish fafnir, 2S5H sIAD.P-H,SV does 180ish l2GB AC 5S5H,sj.S-H-D,dj.P-H, SV does more then the l1 version j.H counter in corner 2S5H,j.D,dj.H-S,BRP CH 2S 6H RC 5S2S5H IAD.P-S-H,5S2D CC AA CH 5H CC j.H-D,dj.H-D, 5S, sj.S-H-D(,dj.H-D), BRP CH FB, j.H-D,dj.H-D,5S,sj.S-H-D,(dj.H-D,)BRP CH FB, GB, 5H, sj.S-H-D,(dj.P-H,)SV So summarized: you're doing it wrong:P

[Sesshyru]

Also, a big part of his damage are the HJI's... Learning to get thoes right with the Dust Loop *timeing* is the thing that gets the damage flowing. Akira, check your messages >.>

[Tsak]

CH GB in a corner with 4 reps of his dustloop deal in the 200s i believe im not sure if its 200 exactly i can test when i get home but it definitely does alot of damage ive seen kaqn pull it off on a millia player and it did like 60-70% but then again thats millia

[LM_Akira]

CH 2S 6D RC 5S2S5H IAD.P-S-H,5S2D CC

Man, that's some next level combo there, RCing a 6D!!

Tsak:

Dust loop tested on Axl (a long time ago in the combo thread):

Lv1 214S dash j.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D land j.HS, j.D, dj.HS, j.D, Lv1 236K (221)

Note it's a normal GB, not even a CH one.

[reaVer]

oopsy:P

[Hintalove]

You're also forgetting the more artsy hos combos that are pretty common in current hos vids. jh CH r.5s > full dust loop Anything > sweep l2 bhb ac frc > air combo/ jh-d djh-d brp Corner gb combos are crazy, but corner gb are some what harder to get than midscreen. Basically his damage becomes very respectable in the corner, and his tensionless midscreen stuff will still get you dead in about 3ish combos. All that said, I don't think the failing of hos is really in his damage so much as having no screen presence(outside of savage fang) unless he's riding your face. Many characters limit him from getting into a position that allows him to utilize his damage if they play the matchup correctly. I'm curious to see if any hos players spend the time to get down those meterless kd dj.d combos, and if they'd be worth it.

[reaVer]

OS has a lot of options to give chase to an opponent that's teching or trying to escape. Generally you don't need to sacrifice damage for knockdown. Though remember that any sweeprange knockdown ends up in GB setup, which is still the pinnacle of his mixups.

[Teyah]

Just some corrections to point out...

You're watching bad OS players then, even KZO takes over 60% if he gets the chance:O

Thanks for the responses. The Order-Sol players I took these combos from were Kaqn, KZO, and Inoue. From what I've heard these three seem to be among the top OR players in Japan, but I did only look at ~10 videos in total, so this isn't a completely representative sample.

In these vids I rarely saw HJI used or relaunch dustloops, most of this probably due to positioning not being perfect to hit with them. A landed CH Fafnir was also rare, most of them were blocked / whiffed. I don't doubt at all that he can break 200 damage in some combos, what I'm saying is that he's far from it in the average successful mixup / CH situation.

[LM_Akira]

Whilst Kaqn is an excellent HOS player, he hasn't been seen to be playing the character for quite a while now (not long after SBO he switched back to Millia) and never really went for the absolute max damage combos as much as others might. KZO is a bit too erratic to take combos from really. Sanma is a currently one of the strongest HOS players (imho), as is 0 (has been for a while, Kaqn even considered him the best HOS to enter the last 23v23). Sanma does quite a bit of HJI stuff and dust looping. Even N-Shima does JI on almost all his combos to max damage. Check out WUT's vids and you'll also get a better idea of standard and max damage combos HOS has realistically in a fight. Dust loop is a relatively recent thing for HOS players to go for (in the grand scheme of things) so you won't find that many vids of Kaqn using it I think. It's also quite hard in certain circumstances, hence why people will favour easier combos that do less damage if they're in a tourney situation.

[reaVer]

The same applies HJI, kaqn did it, but it was near the end of his OS career.

[Sesshyru]

I recently went around on Youtube favoriteing "good" videos to practice on. I saw this one video in Korean, I think it was zero, and he was loopin the mess outa somebodys face at any range any where any time all the time. This man looped off of a 5P once. And he constantly HJI's even if he miss' some how in the air which I noticed was like 60 40 chance that he will loop the whole way. The damage off of even a missed loop was still significant. He always tried to continue the corner loop by not ending it with a BRP, but it failed 90% of the time . Hard stuff. The other thing was he was always ALWAYS RFC'n his BHB's which he did after his standard *rush in* 5K - 5S - BHB, and then re did it and kept the pressure, even this did nice *poke* damage and led into loops for no reason. So yes he can bust 200 damage easily, but the amount of pressure OS can apply with good looping skills, to me, makes it all meaningful even with a 160 failed loop.