[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[Destin]

Sanma is great, but he is just not top level like 0 or kaqn.

[reaVer]

Sanma is great, but he is just not top level like 0 or kaqn.

Kaqn doesn't compare to 0 imo, he might be on Sanma's level or might even be below that. He never should've taken that OS vacation trip.

[Destin]

0 Kaqn Sanma ... ... ... ... ... Kzo

[whytesakura]

i agree that kaqn was the best when he did main HOS his millia got really good his HOS leveled down a little.

[Nakkiel]

I don't think Kaqn was ever better than 0.

[whytesakura]

when Kaqn really does play, he does really good i can recall the ogawa fights and the fight against shounen. maybe i should watch more O fights.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

0 is the best HOS, no question. Even kaqn said he thinks 0 is better, and that was before 0 was all that well-known. kaqn is good, but he seems lazy for a HOS player. He gets by because he has been playing GG for a really long time and truly understands how to play the game and exploit the system. He is just solid all around and makes very few mistakes. Sanma is too flashy. He is the antithesis of kaqn, more knowledge/showiness in his HOS gameplay but not as solid defensively/not as experienced. Plays too risky for the gameplay environment he's in. KZO is KZO. He has his moments of safety and then he goes crazy with the reversals. Overall he seems really average though, similar to kaqn in that he doesn't really exploit the character's strengths to their maximum and just tries to get by on playing solid (when he isn't SVing everything in sight).

[Kamui Moon]

KZO shouldn't even be talked about anymore. What has the guy done in the past two years? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. We just hear about him 24/7 because of our resident SV-spamming scrub. I think some of us actually need to give our respect to Inoue, especially since he's come back from Testament. He's right at the same level as kaqn, if not better. Strong defense, flashy combos, and he's right near the top when it comes to baiting damn near anything. Mike's blog is always talking about him racking up huge win streaks with every character, but his main is back to Order now.

[Destin]

Anyone who switches to testament for sbo then goes back to order isn't interesting enough for me to watch. If i had to put inoue on the list though, he would be above kzo. (I did it just for reaver.)

[whytesakura]

idk about inoue. i don't think he is a top player or anything, no doubt he is really good but definitely not along the ranks of like kaqn, koichi, ruu, FAB, woshige, RF, shounen

[Hintalove]

That last statement was made in ignorance, I know, but it still kind of irks me how people who only see the random off color vid of these players can say stuff like "I don't think Inoue is a top player". Inoue is an epic guilty gear player. He could come to America and play in any tournament as random selecet and go home with the money bags. You can ask elvenshadow, or who ever you want that has actually watched him play, and you will hear that he has some of the most solid basic gg play in the whole community. The guy beats people like FAB and Taku with his alts, and he's not a top player? He got his testament up to SBO standards in just short months. Even from watching his HOS videos, past and present you can see his tooth and nail fighting spirit. While he might not do flashy 0-esque combos or agression, he has this magical ability not to let you beat him. He does not fall for shit, and he doesn't let chances slip by. I'm not going to say he's as good at playing hos as 0 is, I would say there of equal calibur on the GG pro stage, and it is undeniable that Inoue is a much more accomplished player than any of the other order sols baring kaqn. /soapbox off Sorry bout that, but sometimes it just gets to me how polarized/opinionated some people get about Japanese players on these boards. I don't think the average american player can really fathom the ammount of GG that gets played in Japan. There are hundereds of gamecenters, and thousands of players, and millions of matches. The very, very, very, small % of those that turn into match vids do not represent the state of the Japanese scene as a whole. So make what ever conclusions you want, but instead of ragging on legit players, go learn to dustloop or something.

[whytesakura]

sorry we are only comparing them to players who make an appearance (in japan). if they don't make an appearance then they don't matter. im sorry if it sounded as sheer ignorance. its just opinion. saying the japanese are better than us, sure i can accept that. they have the game first, more arcades, and less ground to cover as in terms of tournaments; of course they are going to be better.

[Hintalove]

Do a youtube search for Inoue OS

[whytesakura]

i've seen his hos , i-no, and a few other chars i believe. i never said he was bad. i was just saying that his stuff doesn't look as solid as the people who played since reload. i give the man props for playing all his chars legitimately. same for kaqn.

[reaVer]

I'd put Inoue somewhere between Sanma and 0, imo he's slightly less solid than KZO but a lot more solid than Sanma. He's more like a guy spending the whole match waiting for that moment he catches fire and when he has it he burns his opponent to death. Sanma isn't super flashy, I'd say that apart from his combos he's a really basic player. He doesn't do anything weird or gimmicky to get himself going. Amongst OS players KZO is the least likely to lose health over some shit. He can get mixed up for a good combo, but its not like "duh, what was I thinking?" stuff that other players tend to have. Even 0 from a year ago or so had those moments but he got rid of a significant amount of them(becoming really solid in the process). I'd say that KZO's game is more in tune with people trying to keep him in a lock and considering his losses, back then any OS player lost to FAB, there haven't been many OS vs Baiken vids out and KA2 got a legit victory over him (and the current best west Sol player Roi).

[WUT]

I never jumped on the "compare the best players with your char" train. It just doesn't make sense to me. Who's the best HOS? What's your definition of "best"? Maximizes character potential or flat out ability to produce wins? Does it even matter? This isn't Slash where our only HOS hero was Kaqn, I'll give you that. We've got a few options as to who our favorite HOS is. But they're still simple preferences. ReaVer has his KZO, I prefer watching 0, Kamui Moon may enjoy Inoue matches. It's all moot. You watch vids to pick up tricks and tactics; not to emulate your favorite player. If they tend to fit your playstyle then more power to you. Maybe you're doing it right. Maybe you aren't and need to switch up your game to win more. I consider the match vids the Japanese post as glitz and glamour. They post those vids because something awesome happened and it's worth watching. Someone/both played very well, someone ran a train, or a tactic was successfully employed, etc. That's all fine and dandy, but it gives you a very askewed view of the playing prowess of most of the players displayed in the vids. Some players are portrayed as simply unbeatable and god-like, when that simply isn't the case. There are a myriad of other times when players perform poorly, bad day, tournament stress, all that jazz. Chances are you don't see those vids as often, as they aren't really worth looking at. For the longest time, I wondered why the only Anji vids posted were Anji vs. Pot. Then I realized why: that's one of the only times where Anji will almost always perform exceptionally. They post those vids because Anji looks good. I'm rambling now. My only point is that you need to concern yourself with getting consistent. If you can continually be awesome and perform when you need to then that's all that matters.

[whytesakura]

ive seen consistent and inconsistent lol. ten is my hero; i argue that he is the best i-no; the only thing is that koichi is more consistent. i've seen koichi's bad days. i wish the man knew what a block button was. as far as my consistency. thats all i worry about. i play as much casuals as possible to make sure i got my shit right. i have my own style with i-no. i kinda play a mix of koichi and ten. as far as i know, i try to play very textbook until i find another reason not to.

[Destin]

Maximizes character potential or flat out ability to produce wins? Does it even matter?

To me it matters when I am comparing various conflicting tactics. If I have a player who is generally considered better, I can attempt to understand the differences with better information.

Some players are portrayed as simply unbeatable and god-like, when that simply isn't the case. There are a myriad of other times when players perform poorly, bad day, tournament stress, all that jazz. Chances are you don't see those vids as often, as they aren't really worth looking at.

Well, I don't know how much things have changed, but when I was over there, they pretty much were as good as they looked in the videos (this was 3 years or so ago). And I was shocked to find during the SBO qualifiers that nobody seemed phased by pressure.

The japanese aren't unbeatable, or anything of that nature, but the things you see in most of the videos is what is actually happening in your average matches all over the place. You pretty much need to be somewhere near that level to beat their best players. I hate doing this picking apart of posts, and I generally like what you write so I didn't want to trash it or anything, but I'm just on the opposite side of the fence on this one.

[Sesshyru]

I don't think the average american player can really fathom the ammount of GG that gets played in Japan. There are hundereds of gamecenters, and thousands of players, and millions of matches.

This is the defining factor between pass and fail!

When half the country lives down the street, the GG has to be AMAZING..

[WUT]

No beef man. Dissenting opinions and constructive criticism are how you have the best discussions and arrive at the best conclusions. They're always welcome.

That being said, I wasn't intending to discredit the Japanese as far as their experience and skill are concerned. It's obvious they have much more match-up exposure and will be more primed to perform better in that setting. Even our best are only as strong as a mediocre Japanese player, and that's how it'll remain until we get a constant and varied playing atmosphere.

The cause of my little diatribe was primarily from watching the SBO videos. I understand the premise of the SBO vids (they're supposed to be flashy and a show, a performance if you will), but they honestly just didn't impress. I had maybe[/] two moments when I saw something interesting, but other than that it was just solid play. Solid, but not overwhelming in the least.

I guess I just compare it to myself and what I tend to see in the American scene. As an example, and, not trying to toot my own horn or anything, I perform solidly in casuals and general play. As most strong players do. I get tournament jitters however and overthink situations that should be more straightforward than I make them out to be. Since that's the case, my tournament videos are all a poor representation of my actual level of play. Since I'm playing this game competatively, you can make the claim that it IS an accurate representation of my level of play (I want to win, after all), but that's not the point. I know I'm capable of more than what gets uploaded or how well I do in tournaments; I've done it before. I just can't bridge that gap in consistency yet.

I'm not saying I could hang with the top or even higher-level Japanese players. Not at all. I'd get rocked. But do I think I could beat them eventually, given exposure to their level of play? Of course.

To me it matters when I am comparing various conflicting tactics. If I have a player who is generally considered better, I can attempt to understand the differences with better information.

Comparing tactics tends to be irrelevent if you can't grasp the underlying situations, such as previous match-up experiences and conditioning. And you don't get to understand these factors from videos, unless they happen to post a set of matches from the same players. 0 may have done Option A in Scenario A, but only because the opponent fell for Options B and C previously, or the opponent has alot of experience with Scenario A and Options B and C have been used more. With playing HOS, you normally have a few answers, or one solid answer, to any situation. Just because different players use different options doesn't mean one is inferior to the other; it tends to be a matter of preference.

Playstyle and general tactics are to be left to the individual and specific match-ups. You rush Chipp, you charge and then approach Testament, things of that nature. Some people prefer Level 1, others may always want to have some Charge to work with. Every situation can call for a different tactic; that's the beauty of having options.

[Destin]

Comparing tactics tends to be irrelevent if you can't grasp the underlying situations, such as previous match-up experiences and conditioning. And you don't get to understand these factors from videos, unless they happen to post a set of matches from the same players. 0 may have done Option A in Scenario A, but only because the opponent fell for Options B and C previously, or the opponent has alot of experience with Scenario A and Options B and C have been used more. With playing HOS, you normally have a few answers, or one solid answer, to any situation. Just because different players use different options doesn't mean one is inferior to the other; it tends to be a matter of preference.

Playstyle and general tactics are to be left to the individual and specific match-ups. You rush Chipp, you charge and then approach Testament, things of that nature. Some people prefer Level 1, others may always want to have some Charge to work with. Every situation can call for a different tactic; that's the beauty of having options.

Understanding Options B and the C is paramount to playing the game well, and that is usually the hardest part of watching the videos, understanding why they did not do things you consider effective. You really have to consider the opponents options, and what they would be doing that makes your selected option less effective than the Japanese one.

And WUT I think these SBO's may not be that exciting because the game is stagnating a bit, at least with hos imo. It was fun to watch in the same way that super turbo is fun to watch, you aren't really learning anything (unless you are watching mattsun), but its neat to see the ideas applied so perfectly. Well actually, thats just the feeling I get, maybe yous just too good.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Solid play is the best play. It's cool when you see something new and interesting, but at this point in the game's life it's just not going to happen.

[reaVer]

I guess I just compare it to myself and what I tend to see in the American scene. As an example, and, not trying to toot my own horn or anything, I perform solidly in casuals and general play. As most strong players do. I get tournament jitters however and overthink situations that should be more straightforward than I make them out to be. Since that's the case, my tournament videos are all a poor representation of my actual level of play. Since I'm playing this game competatively, you can make the claim that it IS an accurate representation of my level of play (I want to win, after all), but that's not the point. I know I'm capable of more than what gets uploaded or how well I do in tournaments; I've done it before. I just can't bridge that gap in consistency yet.

Your tournament performance IS the representation of your level of play. There is no jury sitting there "I'm gonna give this guy an A because he played nice and clean and used little special moves" or "I'm gonna give the guy a D for SVing all day long", the only standard you're measured by is how well you do in tournament. If you can do more you should do more and if you didn't think about it you can't do it. At the same time you don't have to open your full box of tricks on the first go:P

Solid play is the best play.

No, the play that nets you the most victories is the best play. There is no requirement of it being solid.

[WUT]

SBO was tame in general. One of the only moments I was impressed was from an Anji player actually; he did a corner setup that I've only seen one other time. No HOS impressed me; they never do. If they play solid then awesome, but anything they do I've usually seen already. And no, your tournament play doesn't dictate your level as a player. It shows how well you play under pressure. I know plenty of people that play very effectively but just crack under pressure. Does that mean they're bad at the game? No. It means they suck at tournaments or when the pressure is on. The ability to cope with pressure, coupled with overall match-up experience, are what make you a solid player when it comes to tourny wins.

[HolyOrderChipp]

To keep somewhat on the Japan subject, in a bunch of the vids I've seen, the Japanese drop combos, especially dust loops off of corner throws. Dunno why this is.