So I thought I understood frame data...

[Amos_Keeto]

Hi all

Been lurking Dustloop for a while, absorbing the info, and finally got to a point where I wanted to take my game a bit more seriously.

I decided to actually look at the frame data for BB properly, and I am now really confused. I grasp the idea of startup / active / recovery frames without issues, as well as the concept of having frame advantage. My problem, is that looking at the frame advantage column, it seems that just about every attack results in a "-" (Well, for Lambda, at any rate.) Does this mean that all her moves are essentially really unsafe on block? Is it really possible that no matter what I do, I'm going to be at a disadvantage?

What am I missing?

(On a related note, in the cancel column, I'm not sure what some of the abbreviations mean, and I can't seem to find the meanings either. I guess J is jump cancel, and R is rapid, but what about C and S? Is C just "regular" cancel, and S dash?)

Thanks for any help, much appreciated.

[skd]

Anything with a -X is disadvantage on block, implying that your opponent can move X frames before you can. Anything that is -5 on block can be punished (-2 for IB) But considering range/spacing punishing is not always possible. Different characters have different punishes, as some characters dont have 5f startup move/moves that are fast enough at certain spacings. Matchup knowledge is important!

The -X number also signifies not canceling the move, so if you were to do lambda 5C, you would be at -8 (pretty punishable) but if you dod 5C > 6C, then you would end at -3 on block, as well as spaced a little better as 6C pushes your opponent backwards. However, theoretically speaking if someone with a 5 frame startup 5A IB'd 6C point blank and dashed for 1 frame and did 5A, it could punish you, so be careful~

Spike chaser and sickle storm are +20 and +70 something on block, so have fun with those! Your objective as a zoner is not to be up close, so dont worry too much about being atdisadvantage

Edited May 21, 2012 by not_lunaris

[Airk]

Hi all

Been lurking Dustloop for a while, absorbing the info, and finally got to a point where I wanted to take my game a bit more seriously.

I decided to actually look at the frame data for BB properly, and I am now really confused. I grasp the idea of startup / active / recovery frames without issues, as well as the concept of having frame advantage. My problem, is that looking at the frame advantage column, it seems that just about every attack results in a "-" (Well, for Lambda, at any rate.) Does this mean that all her moves are essentially really unsafe on block? Is it really possible that no matter what I do, I'm going to be at a disadvantage?

What am I missing?

This has pretty much been covered already - Lambda isn't a rushdown character, so she's not really in a position to continue pressure after having a bunch of stuff blocked at short range; Her objective is to set up situations where, if stuff is blocked, she can safely disengage and play her long range neutral game again (generally by jumping back, backdashing, or Instant Airdashing backwards). So anything where she's not -5 or more is 'usually' 'safe enough' for her to evade away if her opponent doesn't predict -how- she's going to escape. Though of course, you always have the option of throwing out an attack anyway in the hopes of catching your opponent trying to catch you running away - some Lambda players will do the occasional 2B after a blocked 236B (which is only -1 anyway) because 2B is pretty quick, and depending on the move your opponent uses next, it might avoid it for a counter hit.

(On a related note, in the cancel column, I'm not sure what some of the abbreviations mean, and I can't seem to find the meanings either. I guess J is jump cancel, and R is rapid, but what about C and S? Is C just "regular" cancel, and S dash?)

I do a lot of frame data reading, and this threw me for a minute too.

S is "Special cancel" as in "can be cancelled into a special move"

C is apparently "chain" cancel, i.e. "gatlings into itself if you mash the button" - this is why you see it on most characters' 5A/2A, though Lambda also has it on the delightfully mashy 5C.

Somewhat inexplicably, there is no entry in the cancel column for Dash cancelling - moves that can be dash cancelled just say so in the notes. @_@

Edited May 21, 2012 by Airk

[Amos_Keeto]

Thanks a lot for the help.

I guess I kinda panicked a bit, being used to frame data from other games, which have more +'s in their lists. I also see that most of the other characters also have a fair share of -'s, so I guess that balances things out a bit?

Still, to be honest, it still seems kinda odd. Guess I just need to adjust mental gears and soldier on. =]

[St1ckBuG]

To build on what not_lunaris said, don't get too caught up on what is at a disadvantage. Don't just look at the frame advantage column, you should also be checking the revolver action tables to see what her normals cancel into: other normals, jumps, specials, and supers.

Also, it's important to not confuse disadvantage with risk. If that doesn't make sense I'll elaborate.

Edit: Seems like I didn't read your post close enough. Regardless, don't get too caught up in frame data: it's important, but not the end-all to what you are and aren't allowed to do in a match.

Edited May 21, 2012 by St1ckBuG

[Amos_Keeto]

Also, it's important to not confuse disadvantage with risk. If that doesn't make sense I'll elaborate.

You mean throwing out a move, just because it's "safe", can land me in a world of hurt if the opponent reads me right, or on the flip side, trying something like 236C, which can get my ass handed to me, but if it connects I can launch into a decent combo?

[St1ckBuG]

You mean throwing out a move, just because it's "safe", can land me in a world of hurt if the opponent reads me right, or on the flip side, trying something like 236C, which can get my ass handed to me, but if it connects I can launch into a decent combo?

Yes!

Risk vs. Reward.

[shtkn]

it's also important to note that the frame advantage listed is if you don't cancel the attack into anything.

most normals can be easily canceled into other attacks to act as a frame trap, or canceled into a jump > air backdash for safety. check the revolver action table at teh bottom of each frame data page to see what options are available off any given attack.

studying your character and your opponent's table. this can make blocking easier

ex: the opponent's overhead can cancel from X and Y so i should look for an overhead if I see X or Y

ex: the opponent only option after Z is to jump, so i should prepare my anti jump option when i see Z

it can also give you ideas on how to set up your block strings

ex: A is frame disadvantage, but i can cancel it into B and C, so that can be a frame trap

[Airk]

To complicate things further, just because something is minus on block doesn't mean it's a frame trap when you cancel it to something else - whether it's a frame trap has to do only with how much blockstun the move inflicts and how fast the subsequent move comes out.