[CSE] Lambda Combo Thread v2

[someonewhodied]

Gravity(FC)>Gold Burst x2>214D>5Cx1>6C>236D>214D~C>236C>446A>2147D>66A>2147D>6A>2C>Air Swords>Distortion Ender.

Can someone try that out to see if it works?

[Overheat]

It easily works

[ElegantShadow]

If someone could please answer this I'd be most grateful to him/her.

You see, This is the Gravity Seed Combo I use...

Gravity seed followed by 2D then Crescent saber into 6A 6C then 236C followed by 2D J.D J2.D and finally Crescent Saber.

Now my question is Does it matter at all that instead of just using Crescent Saber after Gravity Seed I use 2D followed by said Crescent Saber?

The reason I'm asking is because I've seen other people in videos use this combo without 2D, and I want to know if it makes a difference damage wise.

Thank you in advance for answering. :D

[Nedel_3773]

Using 2DD before the first Crescent Saber will lower your damage overall. Sometimes it's needed to have the right spacing, but most of the time you can skip it and just do X - 214A - TK.

[toanenadiz]

Just as an example, here are two combos which are exactly the same except adding 2DD before the crescent:

[Anti Air] 2DD > 214A > j214D > 66 > 6A > 6C > 236C > 2C > 5C > 4B[2] > 2DD > jDD > j2DD > jc > j.DD > j.2DD > j.214D(4379/49)

[Anti Air] 2DD > 214A > 2DD > j214D > 66 > 6A > 6C > 236C > 2C > 5C > 4B[2] > 2DD > jDD > j2DD > jc > j.DD > j.2DD > j.214D(4176/52)

So you lose damage but get slightly more heat.

[Overheat]

Adding Drive can make combo's easier. It's also usually better to get in more Drives near the end of a combo.

(midscreen)

2DD > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > j.2C > 2DD > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > air ender

- this is if you don't have Gravity.

(midscreen)

2DD > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > j.2C > 2DD > 214A > TK > Dashing 6A > 6C > 236C > Dashing 5C[8] > 2C > air ender

- you can also do 5C[8] > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > air ender for comparable damage with more Heat.

Besides the Heat Gain, it's more lenient for positioning, compared to 2DD > 214A, 2DD > (j.C) > j.2C, etc. It also gives you some time during the combo to readjust.

[Nedel_3773]

While training for an upcoming tournament, I went through Overheat's midscreen 214A FC combo and found myself having the worst time possible trying to do X - 236D - dashing 214D-C - dashing 214D so I tried to come up with something easier to do. Here's what I got so far.

Midscreen 214A FC - 236C - 236D - dashing 214D-C - dashing 5C[8] - 4B[both] - 2DD - hj.DD - hj.2DD - j.214D-C - hj.DD - hj.2DD - dj.DD - dj.2DD - dj.214D

5271 with 50 heat

Sadly, I'm unsure how to make the combo go up to 50 heat before the j.214D, which would be a very good thing for more damage. Keep in mind that this was done so it would be as practical as possible.

[Overheat]

Maybe try adding a 2DD > TK > Dashing 6DD > 2DD after the 4B[2]? It would be easier on some characters, of course... But you are at 38% after the TK, so you do have some leniency.

You could also do 2DD > j.C > j.2C > 2DD > air ender instead, and it'd be very very easy, as well as getting some more Heat. Or omit the j.C if you don't need it. You could also try adding a 2DD > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > air ender for Heat. Try it out and see what works for you.

[Nedel_3773]

I don't want to put 2DD - TK - dashing 6DD because of just that: it's easier on some characters only.

In regards to j.2C, it brings the opponent too close, so it messes up my air ender, as well as the possibility for j.214D-C. I will probably give it another try later in the week to see what can be done...

[Overheat]

214A FC > 236C > 236D > Dashing 214D~C > Dashing 5C[8] > 4B[2] > 2DD > j.2C > 2DD > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > air ender. I'm hoping it's easy enough. They should be high enough from the last 4B that the horizontal distance isn't really an issue (just super jump 7 for the air ender).

[someonewhodied]

Midscreen to corner (As flashy as I could make the beginning since all lambda combos end the same way.)

236B(CH)>RC>236A>214A>446A>2147D>5Cx1(or x2 depending on height)>6C>236D>214D~C>236C>44B(2)>2DD>Air Swords>DD Ender

[Overheat]

For what it's worth, you could do 2DD > TK > 6DD > 2DD > air ender, although it'd be more difficult.

[someonewhodied]

Oh, maybe I was just having an off day when i was attempting it. It didn't work for me when I first had this combo idea.

[Overheat]

A video from a while ago showing some relatively more match-practical Lambda combo's. Some of the combo's aren't necessarily optimal, though.

[someonewhodied]

Can lambda get any SMP combos?

6C corner spam would be hilarious.

[toanenadiz]

4B(2), 6C, 236D (and 236D~C), j214D, and 236C are our moves that have SMP. Fit 10 (it is 10 to start it right?) of them into a combo and see.

[someonewhodied]

blech, i can't see it working then. I was hoping for a 6C corner spam combo

oh well.

[Overheat]

SMP combo's don't seem to work with Lambda for a few reasons. I tried it out around a week ago. If you guys are interested in the theory of it, I can do a long post about it, my initial guesses, what/how I tried it, and my conclusions.

[toanenadiz]

I feel better now that one of the combo masters couldn't do it either. I thought I was just failing horribly. It would be an interesting read if it wouldn't take too much of your time up.

[Overheat]

Alright. First of all, what are SMP combo's? SMP stands for Same Move Proration. It's important to note that they are a relatively new exploit of (P4U and) BlazBlue's combo system, so a lot of specifics and/or exceptions don't appear to be known about it. An explanation I heard that I really liked basically said that SMP combo's existed due to a programming oversight (that people eventually discovered and took advantage of). Still, until recently, I thought I had understood how they worked. I was wrong, though. It seems, judging by their wording, that quite a few others were as well. At least, for a while. This helpful post helped clear things up.

So to get a crazy SMP combo, you'd need to use 10 different moves before using moves with SMP that you want to use repeatedly in a combo. The notation for an example of one of Naoto's SMP combo's is 5AA > 5B > 2C > 236236D > 214D > 2AB > 236A~D > 2C[charged] > 5C > (236B~D) x 11. As you can see, there are 10 different moves used before using 236B~D, with 5AA counting as 2 moves (part of her autocombo), 2C and 2C[charged] being 2 different moves, and the 236236D super counting as a move (despite doing no damage). "Gold Bursts", or offensive Bursts used in combo's, can also count towards the 10 different moves count.

236B~D > 236B~D > 236B~D. If you start a combo with 236B~D, and try the loop from that, the damage scales horribly right after you use 236B~D a second time. The opponent can tech after the third loop 236B~D. That's why it's important to have the 236B~D be the 11th different move in a combo.

As toanenadiz mentioned, Lambda's SMP moves are j.214D (85%), 6C (75%), 4B[2nd hit] (75%), 236C (40%), 236D(~C) (10%), with the percentages being the penalties for using the move a second time in a combo. If you were to use said move a third time, the penalty would incur a second time, etc.

Apparently, when looking back at it, I had already done an SMP combo with Lambda. 214A FC > (Gold Burst) x 2 > 236C > 4B[2] > 632146D > 6C > 236D > 214D~C > 214D > 632146D > 6B > 2C > TK > 2C > TK > 6A > TK > 3C > 214A > 6DD > 2DD > air DD ender. That's over 10 different moves before using a modified TK loop. So I decided to calculate the damage values, and I was even more confused. The theoretical damage calculated was a lot higher than the damage in-combo. So I tested out some of the reps of j.214D to double-check actual damage values and compare it with the theoretical damage values. For all reps of j.214D, the theoretical damage was much higher.

So I calculated the damage a different way (essentially taking the SMP penalty into effect). These new theoretical values were very accurate compared to the actual damage values.

My 2 guesses at this point.

(1.) I didn't actually do an SMP combo

(2.) The SMP always has a damage penalty, but when using the exploit with 10 different moves, the SMP only affects damage, not both untech time and damage. This, if true, would differ from P4U's, like Naoto's SMP combo.

The prospect of SMP combo's with Lambda was pretty exciting, because of the potential she has with some of her moves (mainly 6C and 236C). Furthermore, it's safe to assume that 214D and 214D~C are 2 different moves, and that 5C[1] and 5C[2-8] are different moves. So that's already 4 moves taken care of.

This was my first attempt. 236236D > 5C[2] > 236D > 214D~C > 214D > 214A > Gold Burst > 4B[#2 only] > Gold Burst > 2C > 6C > 236C > (Dashing 5C[2] > 6C > 236C) x 3 or 4 > Y > air DD ender. Wasn't exactly sure how many times I could do that 5C[2] > 6C > 236C loop. It was probably 4, but it might've just been low enough to miss that last rep. If it worked, there'd be so much damage potential in CSE (I assume in CS2 as well).

Didn't work. Maybe I was wrong about 5C[1] and 5C[2-8] counting as different moves, about 214D~C and 214D, and maybe Gold Bursts didn't count as moves (in BB, at least, since they do count in P4U) either. So I tried combo routes that replaced some of these moves, yet still should have met the requirements of 10 different moves.

Still didn't work.

I started thinking that maybe DD's in BB didn't count, despite supers in P4U counting as unique moves. This variation didn't work, though.

Sadly, I came to realize that even if SMP combo's existed for Lambda in CSE, there would be much better alternatives. It would be too much trouble. That's also what I thought a while ago too, until I found that post explaining SMP in the Naoto forums. If a 5C > 6C > 236C loop did exist, it would be ridiculously powerful. That was the reason I started trying it out, though.

The second guess I had about why Lambda's SMP combo didn't work also didn't make much sense to me. But it was the only other guess I could come up with. I wasn't sure if my first guess was true, since I had clearly done more than 10 moves. Regardless, by the end of testing out variations of a possible 5C > 6C > 236C loop, I found that the second guess was incorrect. The first guess seemed to be the answer, but I wasn't sure why until I took a break and thought about it.

So why didn't any of them work? The whole premise about SMP combo's, if I'm not mistaken, is that after using 10 different moves, you're doing a loop that has SMP, but without the SMP kicking in. When looking at other SMP combo's, though, most of them have a single move looping into itself, which is one of the conclusions I arrived at.

Ragna (BK) 623D~236C~214D SMP example

Litchi 63214D~A SMP example

Platinum SMP example

Noel SMP example 1

Noel SMP example 2

Noel SMP example 3

Noel SMP example 4

Arakune 6B and j.236C SMP example

Valkenhayn SMP example

Hazama SMP example

Despite everything I posted, Hazama's is the biggest example to throw my idea's off. Noel (22B and 6C both are weird in different ways), Valkenhayn (Wolf 236A and 236B, if I'm not mistaken) and Arakune's (both his 6B one and j.236C one) seem a bit different to me as well. I can't really explain why they work, with Hazama being able to do a 5C > 2C > 214D~B loop, Valkenhayn being able to do both 236A's and 236B's after the 10 moves, and Arakune doing his 6B > j.D > 6B > 6B > 6B, or his midcurse j.236C combo. Lambda, using some of the same ideas, isn't able to have an SMP combo.

I think Ragna's SMP combo works, as far as my theory goes, because although all 3 of 623D~236C~214D moves are all different, they might only count as 1 move as far as SMP loops go, since you can only do those moves as part of a "Rekka".

Also, AchedSphinx's combo has over 10 different moves and does a straight loop like Hazama's, unlike my 2C > TK > 2C > TK > 6A > TK, or my 2C > 6C > 236C > (5C[2] > 6C > 236C) loop, but the damage doesn't match the theoretical non-SMP value. In other words, SMP is still in effect.

I don't think using more than 10 different moves, like 11 or 12 for example, affects an SMP combo. Also, for most characters, it's hard to use many unique moves that are both damaging and prorate favourably. For that reason, most, if not all, SMP combo's that I've seen use only 10 different moves before using a move with SMP. The Noel combo's also seem to use more than 10 different moves, in any case.

Incidentally, I tried doing an SMP combo in CS1 with Lambda. Basically X into her 236C loop midscreen. Didn't work. Seeing as there wasn't as many moves with RMP in CS1, I'm guessing that the exploit doesn't exist in CS1. Maybe the 10 move "limit" is 15 moves instead, or something like that. Maybe there is no limit, thus SMP always applies in CS1. Either way, I didn't expect it to work.

Maybe Lambda is just a unique character, given how she was one of the first characters to have SMP in BlazBlue, if I'm not mistaken. I don't really know how to explain some of these things that appear to be exceptions.

I also tried a bit of 5C > 6C loops, and as far as I could tell, they didn't work. But maybe I'm wrong. In any case, I wasn't testing for

If you guys have any clue of the supposed exceptions, or anything SMP-related, it'd be awesome to hear it. If I made a mistake, feel free to point it out. Your help can contribute to my understanding, and possibly others.

With that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the SMP exploit was removed in the next game. Although I bet it'd be quite a challenge to take it out.

I left specifics and actual values of calculations out of this post, but if you're interested in the workings of how I calculate combo's and things like that, feel free to PM me.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Overheat

[someonewhodied]

hmm

Maybe:

214A(FC)>Gold Burst X2>236B>665B>6A>2147D>4B>632146D>5DD>2DD>6C>236C>445Cx2>6C>236C>ect...

10 Moves beforehand are:

214A

Burst

236B

5B

6A

2147D

4B

632146D

5DD

2DD

of course since I don't have my game at the moment I can't test it.

[Overheat]

214A(FC)>Gold Burst X2>236B>665B>6A>2147D>4B>632146D>5DD>2DD>6C>236C>445Cx2>6C>236C>ect...

10 Moves beforehand are:

214A

Burst

236B

5B

6A

2147D

4B

632146D

5DD

2DD

5DD and 2DD both probably count as 2 moves, so we'd already have 4 moves from those Drive moves.

I don't think it works. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why this would work, given how my other examples wouldn't.

[HexaNoid]

To my understanding, to make SMP loops work you need to use ten moves that have a repeat proration value on them in one combo before using an 11th that loops into itself xN. The fact that they're different moves isn't a necessity in activating the "glitch", but if you were to use one of the moves with SMP more than once in that combo, it would apply the penalty and make you drop the combo. Therefore, since 4B(2), 6C, Cavalier, Sickle Storm and Crescent Saber are the only moves Lambda has with repeat proration, an SMP loop with her is essentially impossible; there's no way we can use ten SMP moves without using at least one of them more than once.

This is why you often see more than ten moves being used in a combo; some of the other moves don't have SMP and therefore won't contribute to the total. I'll use Noel as an example since I'm most familiar with her. The moves Noel has that have repeat proration are 6C(2), Optic Barrel, B Silencer(1), C Silencer and every one of her drive moves making for a total of 23 SMP moves which makes it very easy for her to pull off SMP loops. Any other moves (6C for example) that are used is basically filler material to get to the next SMP move (6C > OpticA, 6C > B Silencer etc.) and doesn't actually contribute to the SMP total.

Since gold bursts don't have repeat proration they don't count towards the SMP move total, but they do have the bonus proration and can help lengthen SMP combos in the same way that they for normal combos. Once the system starts ignoring SMP, the only thing that stops the combo from being an infinite is the fact that hitstun deteriorates as the combo goes on allowing them to tech out eventually.

So yeah, that's all I can add on the SMP front, but the TL;DR of it is that an SMP combo with Lambda just won't work.

[Overheat]

I wasn't aware that it was any 10 moves with SMP. I assumed others meant getting in 10 different moves with SMP, which would be impossible for some characters. That makes things much more clear. Thanks.

[Overheat]

Corner Air Throw combo's. I just played around with some relatively new ideas and used them in Air Throws instead. The Heat values might seem kinda low, but they're actually pretty decent compared to her other Air Throw combo's. It's important to remember that you basically get 8 Heat from an Air Throw, then you RC it; you need at least 42 Heat before doing these combo's as shown in the video. The Heat gain after all of that is shown as well. The ones listed with a * beside the damage and Heat values are the ones that I recommend you try out, since they seem to be the most match-practical.

Air Throw > RC > 236C > 2C > 6C > 214D > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > TK > 6DD > 2DD > air ender

* (5224, 36)

Air Throw > RC > 236C > 6B > 2C > TK > 5C[2] > 6C > 214D > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > TK > 6DD > 2DD > air ender

(5259, 45)

Air Throw > RC > 236C > 214A > 2C > TK > 5C[2] > 6C > 236D > 214D~C > 5C[8] > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > air ender

(5443, 45)

Air Throw > RC > 214D > 6B > 2C > TK > 5C[2] > 6C > 236D > 214D~C > 236C > Dashing 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > air ender

* (5325, 48)

Air Throw > RC > 6C > 236D > 214D~C > 236C > Dashing 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > TK > 6DD > 2DD > air ender

* (5244, 45)

- depending on the character, you might have to back away a bit before 6C.

Air Throw > RC > Dashing 214D > 214A > 236C > Dashing 5C[1] > 6C > 236D > 214D~C > 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > TK > 6DD > 2DD > air ender

(5596, 50)

Air Throw > RC > 6B > 2C > TK > 5C[2] > 6C > 236D > 214D~C > 236C > Dashing 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > air ender

* (5071, 43)

- 6B must be done as soon as possible, otherwise it won't connect or will be more difficult to connect (depending on the character).

- with 5B instead: 4873, 42. It's much easier with 5B, as well.

These combo's were all done right against the corner, so you might have to make some adjustments if done a bit farther away from the corner.

Also, if anyone is having trouble with (midscreen) 4B[#2 only] > 2DD > 9 > j.2C > 2DD > 214A, where the opponent falls outside of Gravity (behind Lambda), a thing I've found that helps is moving a bit back before I do 2DD, so that the opponent isn't too close when I do 2DD > 214A (which causes the crossover).

4B[#2 only] > 4 > 2DD > 9 > j.2C > 2DD > 214A > etc.