Amadeus46Art Posted August 27, 2012 Posted August 27, 2012 Okay guys, back from SJ, gonna start going through threads and trying to organize information since I know I haven't gotten a chance to do much the past weeks. Lemme know what you want me to get done first, and I'll try to make that priority. If I can pull together enough stuff I might try starting a beginner's guide, we'll see.
TG_Sneak Posted August 27, 2012 Posted August 27, 2012 Okay now that summer jam has passed, are there any other tips and or insight on the mistu and kanji matchup? Those are giving me the most trouble so far.
GMcustom Posted August 27, 2012 Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) It'd have to be seriously plus for that to work I doubt 214D is /that/ plus Really, if you want to run dangerous mixup on someone during pressure, gatling into 2DD/5DD I see it used commonly in the corner by 700+ PSR arcade Chies. It usually happens off of a 5C/2C, back dash, D black spot, [insert mix up] OR max range 5C canceled into D black spot then mix up. Edited August 27, 2012 by GMcustom
Rhiya Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 I don't want hear "I see JP players doing it, it MUST be good" You have the tools to see if it's safe test that shit
GMcustom Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 I never said that But if you think what the best arcade players are doing in tournaments isn't "tested" and "safe", then it sounds like a personal thing for you. Get salt in your steak or something?
Celerity Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 214D is a good +9-10 on block. It's actually not unreasonable to go into IAD jC crossup or minidash kara throw right after, or pretty much whatever you want. I feel like there has to be an anti-Mitsuru frame trap in here somewhere. Still, 5C xx 44 > 214D is probably only really useful in the corner when they're respecting you, or vs Chie/Akihiko, or some other weird cases that I'm not thinking of.
Errol Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 there's a fundamental problem with expecting pressure to be safe anyway.. Really solid oki is one thing, but for the most part, anything you do can be countered if they know it's coming. It's just on you to mix it up so they don't know it's coming. .. yeah. *shrug*
Primiera Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Hmm, might 5B or 5C > 214D be a decent frame trap? Right now I kind of have problems with people who mash good As or Bs during my pressure, as I usually initiate jumping mix-ups off of 5AA on block and some characters can really spam their normals while holding back or down-back - I really should use 5C > 66 throw, or that godly 2A > 5A > 66 2A > 5A frame trap/throw game I see high level Chies do. I'm gonna test out various normals > 214C and 214D, find out how tight the strings are.
Rhiya Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 I never said that But if you think what the best arcade players are doing in tournaments isn't "tested" and "safe", then it sounds like a personal thing for you. Get salt in your steak or something? You'd be surprised at the shit people get away with if you let them
Celerity Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Hmm, might 5B or 5C > 214D be a decent frame trap? Right now I kind of have problems with people who mash good As or Bs during my pressure, as I usually initiate jumping mix-ups off of 5AA on block and some characters can really spam their normals while holding back or down-back - I really should use 5C > 66 throw, or that godly 2A > 5A > 66 2A > 5A frame trap/throw game I see high level Chies do. I'm gonna test out various normals > 214C and 214D, find out how tight the strings are. Well when I was testing it, Yu could 5A pretty easily between 5C and 214D, which is actually a problem since that means 214D doesn't come out (the persona disappears). Felt loose enough that anyone could probably mash out, that's why I think you need to do it when they're going to respect you. And 5B I believe has much less blockstun than 5C.
magz Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Well when I was testing it, Yu could 5A pretty easily between 5C and 214D, which is actually a problem since that means 214D doesn't come out (the persona disappears). Felt loose enough that anyone could probably mash out, that's why I think you need to do it when they're going to respect you. And 5B I believe has much less blockstun than 5C. I was under the impression that black spot actually summoned the persona in front of you regardless of current positioning and even if they 5A the 5C they should still get hit/CH which is why you see a lot of JP Chie's do that exact same trap in match videos. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Celerity Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 I was under the impression that black spot actually summoned the persona in front of you regardless of current positioning and even if they 5A the 5C they should still get hit/CH which is why you see a lot of JP Chie's do that exact same trap in match videos. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Hmm you're right, it seems to depend on the timing though. When I tested it some more, I got a lot of FC Black Spots after Yu jabbed the persona, but sometimes he'll jab it at a weird moment and the Black Spot won't come out. It's like there's 1-2 frames when your persona is being broken where it can't perform any actions.
Primiera Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Well when I was testing it, Yu could 5A pretty easily between 5C and 214D, which is actually a problem since that means 214D doesn't come out (the persona disappears). Felt loose enough that anyone could probably mash out, that's why I think you need to do it when they're going to respect you. And 5B I believe has much less blockstun than 5C. I'm pretty decent at timing when it comes to links and punishes. For the life of me, I cannot beat the string 5AA > 5B > 5C > 214D on block with Yu's As or Bs except in the corner, at which point it's an easy punish. Anywhere else on the screen I either traded or just flat out got beaten by pressing normals, and both situations resulted in a Fatal Counter combo. Could it be that you were testing in the corner, or you didn't have enough pushback from normals first, or you delayed the 214D?
Celerity Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) I'm pretty decent at timing when it comes to links and punishes. For the life of me, I cannot beat the string 5AA > 5B > 5C > 214D on block with Yu's As or Bs except in the corner, at which point it's an easy punish. Anywhere else on the screen I either traded or just flat out got beaten by pressing normals, and both situations resulted in a Fatal Counter combo. Could it be that you were testing in the corner, or you didn't have enough pushback from normals first, or you delayed the 214D? I did all of my testing in the corner with a dash cancel, since I thought that was the most practical. Without the dash cancel I figured I'd get punished, like you said, but I didn't spend very much time on it. It seems to work out often enough that your persona just takes a hit and you get a FC 214D setup, which is pretty nice. Edited August 28, 2012 by Celerity
Celerity Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Dash cancel? *facepalm* Like he mentioned and I added in my post, if you don't dash cancel it, you just get hit, so why wouldn't you? That's my understanding of the trap.
Primiera Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 I did all of my testing in the corner with a dash cancel, since I thought that was the most practical. Without the dash cancel I figured I'd get punished, like you said, but I didn't spend very much time on it. It seems to work out often enough that your persona just takes a hit and you get a FC 214D setup, which is pretty nice. It's a straight up cancel. Were you doing 5C > 66 214D? I don't even see how you could get the 214 started without getting hit.
Celerity Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Minidash cancel the 5C. 5C xx 44 > 214D. That's what I see in the videos and what I attempted to replicate, since it's what sparked this whole discussion in the first place.
Primiera Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 I've been trying to work on my close-mid-range game after realizing how pathetic 5C is against good 5As/5Bs in general when in range (counter-hit into combos for days). It seems to me like 2A is by far her best way to counter these, and based on hit-boxes counter-poke 5B, but I don't know the best conversions into damage. When used defensively or in a countering fashion, what do you guys like to buffer in there? 2A > buffered 236A? 5B > buffered 2D?
Celerity Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 I would call that a backdash cancel. One would think it would be obvious, but sure, fair point. Sorry if what I said was confusing.
ZomB Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 I posted a bunch of information on some of the matchup threads. I'll post more later. Hopefully it's useful for you guys.
kirbster Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Didn't get to meet you in the end ZomB, unless we did and I just don't recognize your handle. Definitely gotta step up my game with Chie, so many people were doing crazy stuff with her this weekend. What I need to figure out is how to use the D moves in neutral in a useful way... I just seem to get persona broken everytime I throw it out ._.
ZomB Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Haha, I actually asked some people if they knew you. I saw your Rachel(but I didn't realize it was you until later) -- good shit. I was the Chie that got 100%'d by Omnisscythe.
Primiera Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 Found out tonight that 236B is not only safe on block, Chie's a bit advantageous on it, giving her a really strong high/low/throw mix-up if the opponent doesn't insta-block the final hit. I might try to incorporate this as a frame trap in block-strings, though 214D is probably a better bet as a frame trap if you know they're pressing normals to stop Tomoe pressure or JC.
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